The HRE...

[Enomine]

Does anyone else feel like they've already won before even starting with this faction? What I mean is that they seem to pose little to no challenge at all whenever I play them (6.2 VH/VH, RR/RC). In my current early campaign it is 1288 and I have a treasury of 250,000+, bringing in 74,000 a turn (before expenses), 11 citadels, most of them full of Teutonic knight chapter houses (2 fortresses left), and I'm number one in everything other than military power, and I could easily be #1 if I needed to and I don't even have any really good HRE units yet (still only have access to feudal knights). This might seem fitting for a campaign that's 126 turns old, but I have not actually fought any majors wars to get here (other than hurling Genoa out of the Italian peninsula because they sacked Rome and killed the pope)

My usual strategey is to secure an early marriage alliance with Denmark, ally with France and Poland, and then gobble up all the rebel settlements around me (Prague, Wroclaw, Antwerp, Gronnigen and the like) and then set taxes to low across the empire and grow. I don't blitz other factions (too easy) and usually just sit tight with my holdings in central Europe until someone attacks me or starts hurting one of my allies too badly (Genoa I'm looking at you).

Is anyone's experience with the HRE different, and if so what do they recommend to make it more difficult? I guess not allying with anyone at the start is probably the most obvious thing to do no?

[Navajo Joe]

This thread is kind of interesting as most folk on this forum tell us how hard to play HRE are. Now I have never played them myself, but it appears you have a good strategy. You could try starting again with BGR4, that will almost certainly make a difference or try BftB V2.0, as the economy there is a lot harder, really struggling to get my Sweden campaign growing, 'monies too tight to mention'

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Caution wide pictures...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[/SPOILER]

I would say that your are generally the exception to the rule. Congradulations... In my campaign out of the shoot I gifted/sold Bologna to the Pontiff for an alliance which lasted til bout turn 30 or so when Genoa assaulted Bern and the Pope dropped me like a rotten potato. Needless to say within four turns of that I was at war on four fronts...

[Enomine]

I suppose I could try BGR4, although I'm suprised to hear that many people find the HRE hard. Does this difficulty mostly come from having so many fronts? If so then they probably seem easy to me just because I'm keeping alliances with well...just about everyone next to me.



That's a pic of the map right now and my finances. Since everything is so secure on the mainland I've dabbled in Scotland a little and joined a few crusades. My problem might be that I don't play aggressively enough so I have too few enemies. I will definitely try them again without making any alliances because I get the feeling that the multi front war is what causes so much difficulty for them, and avoiding it through diplomacy just seems to make things too easy.

edit: those finances are with low tax rates on all cities, so it's potentially a bit higher.

[SnjoNegri]

Are you sure its on VH/VH?

HRE gets blitzed by everybody around it 20 turns in. I was hot seating with my friend and I had to pull off crazy schemes to keep 1/2 the empires off of him.

For instance allying with France over and over for temporary peace, him gifting me settlements so the enemy wont take them then gifting them back, killing the pope because in the instance you defend yourself as HRE in the slightest on the field you get excommunicated lol.

[Enomine]

Yeah it's VH / VH with the most recent RR/RC. I never really experience this blitz that everyone talks about, I just keep sizable garrisons in important border regions and no one ever seems to want to try to tackle them. Hungary was definitely going to try something at Vienna (they had stacks outside it) but never did because of the garrison size inside. Denmark has been my trusted ally since about turn 2 or 3 and they haven't so much as sent a stack near my border at Hamburg. France almost never bothers me (although they tried to take Antwerp when it was a citadel and naturally they had no chance, then the pope excommed them and they offered a ceasefire right away). Poland seems to love me because I've helped them out with the Lithuanians and the same for Venice because I saved them from monstrous Genoa (offered alliance and attack on Genoa in exchange for military access). Maybe it has to do with my reputation / relations with the pope? My reputation was immaculate for awhile because of my low taxes and respect for borders /treaties and so on, and the pope likes me a lot because of all my priests doing the Lord's work in Lithuania. I HAVE been blitzed playing as Venice but I've never experienced it as the HRE.

edit: and you won't get excommed if you are fighting defensive battles, ie: they are on your land when you attack them. It's only for offensive actions.

[Point Blank]

The Campaign AI is probably a bit too stable when it comes to alliances. To make the game more challenging make alliances with only 1 or 2 other factions. Also try the Byg AI, which is more unpredictable, or Gracul AI, which is aggressive.

[Anaatti]

Want challange? Attack pope at very first turns, and get crusade on hamburg

[Enomine]

Want challange? Attack pope at very first turns, and get crusade on hamburg

I think there is a fine line between a challenge and suicidal behavior

[Enomine]

The Campaign AI is probably a bit too stable when it comes to alliances. To make the game more challenging make alliances with only 1 or 2 other factions. Also try the Byg AI, which is more unpredictable, or Gracul AI, which is aggressive.

Thanks I'm going to try no alliances next time for sure, and I'll look into those AI's as well.

edit: the AI in RR/RC by default is SavageAI right?
edit edit: I found the answer

[gluteus maximus aurelius]

Funnily enough my campaign looks remarkably similar to yours right now Enomine, and I'm only at war with the danes and the scots, had a brief tiff with the poles but soon pointy-sticked their behinds into a tactical retreat. Haven't given any lands away to anyone either. This is the first time i've played the HRE on SS though, so this might be the 1/100 campaign where you don't get massacred by everyone, hmm....

[Loose Cannon]

NO ONE has ever said the Early Era HRE is Hard. Fact is it's one of the easier factions to play.
Now, the LATE ERA HRE is a different story.

[El Jojo]

It's a good example of the difficulty to strike a balance in diplomatic AI. I think you found the good way to work with the strategic AI and some of us must be doing it wrong, me included (I'm having a very hard time getting a basic alliance, and peace usually happens when I take the last city of my opponent).
A few details, if you don't mind... How soon did you make these three alliances (Denmark / Poland / France) ? I guess Denmark in the first few turn but then ? Did you have to sweeten the deal with lots of cash/tributes ?
When France attacked you in Antwerp, did they break the alliance or did you get the alliance after the attack ?
Do you pay tributes to your allies / neighbors / pope ? (I see you're not paying any at the moment of the screenshot but maybe before that).

Maybe you were a bit lucky that none of your allies went to war with each other, Denmark and Poland sometimes do it and then you have to choose. In a way what you say is good news, event if it is a bit boring to you. After all, you allied with your three main and most powerful neighbors... who's going to attack you ? Hungary could have but it would have been dangerous for them considering that Poland may have joined the fight... (and Venice!).
Did you go after Scotland because they were isolated, had no allies ? Or out of pure Boredom ?
Low taxes help with the reputation ? didn't know that...
Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get better at my diplomacy game in 6.2

[Enomine]

It's a good example of the difficulty to strike a balance in diplomatic AI. I think you found the good way to work with the strategic AI and some of us must be doing it wrong, me included (I'm having a very hard time getting a basic alliance, and peace usually happens when I take the last city of my opponent).
A few details, if you don't mind... How soon did you make these three alliances (Denmark / Poland / France) ? I guess Denmark in the first few turn but then ? Did you have to sweeten the deal with lots of cash/tributes ?
When France attacked you in Antwerp, did they break the alliance or did you get the alliance after the attack ?
Do you pay tributes to your allies / neighbors / pope ? (I see you're not paying any at the moment of the screenshot but maybe before that).

Maybe you were a bit lucky that none of your allies went to war with each other, Denmark and Poland sometimes do it and then you have to choose. In a way what you say is good news, event if it is a bit boring to you. After all, you allied with your three main and most powerful neighbors... who's going to attack you ? Hungary could have but it would have been dangerous for them considering that Poland may have joined the fight... (and Venice!).
Did you go after Scotland because they were isolated, had no allies ? Or out of pure Boredom ?
Low taxes help with the reputation ? didn't know that...
Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get better at my diplomacy game in 6.2

I made the alliance with Denmark within the first few turns by marrying one of their princesses. Poland was also a fairly early alliance, but it was just a simple alliance/trade rights offer, nothing to sweeten the deal. Venice accepted an alliance and granted me military access when I offered to attack Genoa for them (Genoa was besieging Venice at the time). Genoa was an easy target because they had made the Pope extremely angry by sacking Rome and killing the earlier pope (Genoa has gone through three new kings and there have been 2 new popes appointed and they are STILL excommed).

France is a little more complex because originally they were neutral to me and I was allied to England (I ally with England because normally they get eradicated by Scotland and France in my games and I wanted to preserve them). So when france declared war on England I offered the French an alliance in order to force peace between France and England, so England could try and take on Scotland by themselves. I think France accepted the alliance for some small sum, I probably gave them 10,000 or so.

When France tried to take Antwerp it was because England declared war on them (a while after I forced the peace and helped them with scotland) and I sided with England. By this time though I had driven Genoa from Italy and gifted Rome to the pope when he asked for it back, so he loved me. He instantly excommed France and then they offered a ceasfire once they failed to take antwerp. Now the pope is German too.

England failed to take on Scotland alone so that's why I intervened with that little invasion.

edit: No I don't pay tributes to allies but I do usually attack the people attacking them if they are getting beaten up. I don't need to pay the pope because a) hes a German too now b)I've built a few cathedrals c) I have lots of high piety priests from preaching in Lithuania and Gaza and d) I reclaimed Rome for him. naturally he loves me enough without any addition payments , but I would pay him if my reputation became low. Also, about low taxes, not only do they improve your reputation but if you keep a family member in a low tax city he will gain chivalry. You can then take him and stick him in a castle to get it's growth rate up quickly, since towns don't usually need any help growing, especially with low taxes. I just rotate my family members from low tax city to castles once they have gained 3-4 chivalry until I end up with chivalrous governors in all my castles.

[Jerat]

The Holy Roman Empire in 1150:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I am at war with Genoa, Aragon, France, Scotland, Norway, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Venice, Sicily and the Papal States. The only faction I declared war on was Venice, the others attacked me. My only ally, England is loosing angainst Scotland and Ireland and it is impossible to help because of several French fullstacks marching towards my cities. The campaign is quite fun, Denmark is throwing fullstack after fullstack at the walls of Hamburg, The western front is burning and Venice just managed to capture Vienna with a surprising attack, but I could recapture the town. Fortunately Hungary has big Problems with the ERE and Poland with Lituania, so the Eastern Front is quite secure.

[Naked Emperor]

I have had the same problem with HRE as Enomine. I play VH/VH and usually made too many alliances and gobbled up too many rebel provinces. But this time around I tried things differently and it so coincides that I am at the year 1288 as well!!!!! or it may have been 1286 But I am singing a different tune alltogheter. I have RC/RR compilation installed and I made no alliances, only marriage ones but I send a diplomat and break the alliance on the diplomacy screen.

I decided I would only take Bern, Metz and Prague in the early rush and I would give Bologna away instead to make a nice easily defendable territory. Then I would build up and start expanding aggressively after 1200, crusades non withstanding.

By doing this I allowed the A.I to build up and i fought a defensive war against Hungary, Poles, Norway and the Franks between 1100 and 1200. No sweat I easily dispatched those stacks though Poland and Hungary were a bit annoying with their Magyars and Strelzky (missile cav). The Franks declared war but never showed up with anything. Norway I never fought properly in that century as they declared war and then took Antwerpen, Gronningen and the third Benelux city which I dont remember what is called.

1200-1300 has been a constant grinding. By not grabbing more territory in the beginning of the game gave the A.I access to it and that means they have the ability to spam more armies. I am at war with the Danes, Franks, Norway, Hungary, Poles, Genoa, Sicily, Scotland and would be with Venice but I managed to destroy them. I am just waiting for the Roman Empire to join in as they hold Ragusa and border me by now and is the only state I´m bordering I´m not at war with. All of these states send armies against me except scotland which just happily blocks my Hamburg port. In the 88 years since 1200 I was going to expand aggressively, really get into the total war feel but the only thing I have to show for it is Milan, Genoa, Venice and Pisa...4 cities in over 50 turns.

I don´t have any trading partners so I´m not making as much gold as I hoped for and I haven´t managed to build up as much as I wanted because I´m constantly being sieged and don´t always have the garrison to break the siege or my army stack is otherwisely engaged and can´t break the siege just yet.

And the A.I doenst sige fully defended castles, they go past them for a more squishy target like my cities. The only times the A.I goes for a castle is when I have taken the stack for some housecleaning mission and leave a mininmum garrison. The cost of retraining is high, often the replenishing rate isn´t high enough so I have to make do with spearmen when I could have used spear sergeants. The numbers of stacks I have fought is staggering and as the A.I fields stronger armies my casualty rates are going from 10% to up to 25% per stack I fight. Especially the Danes are making me pay a high price with their heavy infantry that chewes through my spears, and i don´t have the money to field more cavalry to just squash them.

Make no mistakes about it this is Fun...this is Total War and I know I can still lose, it doesn´t take but a one stack too many and the house of cards will break apart. At the moment the Franks are sieging Metz with 2 full stacks and Norway is sieging Cologne with one stack. I have only militia in Cologne and couple of archers to make a difference. The Norse are fielding huskarls, landsmenn and drengjar mixed with huskarl cav, norse archers and some spear militia. The huskarls and landsmenn kick my militia so easily in the face it´s not funny. If I lose Cologne and don´t manage to retrain in Metz, I have a army of vets there and it would take a military disaster to lose the fight, then the situation is dire. My stack in Hamburg is busy fighting the danes which have like 3 stacks in Denmark and one in my territory all with my names on them.

My main thrust is in the south where I have managed to take out Venice and am taking out Genoa which only holds Bologna and Corsica. Unluckily they have 3 full stacks all clustered around Bologna and Sicily is always on the prowl and they have the rest of the peninsula apart from Rome and are sending stacks after stacks against me, a 2 stack naval landing next to Genoa.

The only thing I need is now is to get to know the Roman empire better...only the mongols have a bigger army than them

So in retrospec this is the most fun HRE campagn I have played to date

[Enomine]

@ Naked Emperor
Yeah that does sound like a really fun game, I will definitely try something along those lines next HRE game I try. For now though I think I'll continue either my Novgorod or Venice game, both of which are providing a good challenge. Although Novgorod has a really awful early game. The Lithuanians are slaughtering my eastern spear men / woodsmen bands . If I get charged head on by their general's bodyguard, he basically punches right through the line

[JorisofHolland]

I'm definetely trying the HRE again, once I finnish my Genoese campaign (well, let's say: when I get bored becase I'm powerfull ). Will be the first time I'll play a "hard" faction using RR/RC compilation, but I don't think it will be much harder. If I just defeat all my foes, everything will be fine

[Callawyn]

For a challenge with HRE, play Late Era, and the game is called Total War, not Total Turtle - try attacking someone.

I just got ceasefires with Genoa (I took Marseilles and Genoa from them, leaving them with Ajaccio only) and Denmark (I took Arhus and the 2 regions east of it, leaving them with Visby and their starting province up in Estonia). Norway, Hungary, Aragon and Venice backstabbed me (I just took Venice and should get Ragusa next turn, I beat them back off Innsbruck and they're currently going for Vienna with 2 full stacks, but I think I can hold it). I just backstabbed the Poles, they had marched 3 full stacks into my territory without attacking, I took Thorn from them and will get Stettin next turn and I've assembled a new army at Magdeburg to play defense. I had a bunch of alliances, but only the Teutonic Order is still with me, not that they're helping, and I'm still excommunicated (though, I did get a ceasefire with the Pope). I literally can't buy an alliance with any Catholic power (offering tribute of 5k/turn for 20 turns AND a province, with Very Generous, and still get turned down). When I click end turn I'll lose Zagreb to the Hun, Toulouse to Aragon, and a province up in Sweden to the Norwegians (though, I'm set to take Oslo next turn). Oh yeah, its only turn 14.

[Enomine]

Well in early era games I find that playing very aggressively early on makes the game significantly easier, so I turtle for a little while to let the AI build up. I don't enjoy the late campaign as much but I might try it with HRE to see how challenging it is.