Heroes Hordes &beyond ideas thread

[Soul Firez]

Ok i am making this thread as i would like to here your ideas on future things to possible add to expand the submod and KGCM in general .

First you already know that i am going to bring back the timurids and a faction between france hre (perhaps burgundy or similar) i have also found i will be able to return the Kalamar union event which i thought might be nice (although other ideas for a another faction spot would be looked at for sure). I will be adding daves extra recruitment and possible his slight change in faction placement if its wanted eg tell me what you want in this thread) Ill also look at his AI extra experience (although this will require more CAI work to compensate) as it will make battles harder for you the player

Some things i am implementing in my game (if you want i can add in the submod to ) Is removal of battlefields red outline this always killed my emersion seeing the finish line for running troops(it does make it easier to choose who to run down first or which is the best way for you to run LOL but i want to make things harder and more realistic to add to the challenge .

But as far as visuals go i always hated the northern captains (the heavy armoured guy who runs an army if no general is there.) i started making a new one but found someone had beat me to it and is allowing his work to be done. what i mean is this


This work was done for vanillia but i am adapting it to KGCM and doing the extra skins for factions not covered as i said it was made for vanillia

[Magefsx]

I dont know if you've already changed this, but are norweigans set to prefer naval invasion? Another thing i noticed was the number of mercanery cogs in scandanavian lakes- which could explain why there is a lack of naval invasions on their part; so if that could be prevented i think that the norwegians would be, well, more Viking!
i dont know if it works better this way, but maybe you could add a land bridge at arhus, giving the scandanavians more opportunity to take more land further south(maybe).

[Soul Firez]

They are set to naval invasion and often even when the scots do drive them of britania they will re invade(vh difficulty increases greatly naval invasion) as do denmark they havent needed a land bridge in all the tests i have done as they have both invaded east and west and south by sea But ill definately look into the pirates appearing in the lakes

In reverse though i have seen HRE sail into there lands and have a go lithuania usually has its hands to full though and well the tuetonics always make a appearance at some point so its quite a active naval area

[Magefsx]

they werent pirates-they were norweigan
im just going on the experience of a crashed england campaign to turn 120 and an invasion of norway

[chris7ian]

I would suggest getting rid off milan. As I have been told they werent really a historical faction; however, the Republic of Genoa was and around 1098 ad they had lands in syria. What factions if any are you looking to replace with new factions? I would like to see Sweden as well but I dont know if there is enough room for another Viking faction, not enough towns and such to support the ones already imo. Also you could have the Cherokee in North America but a faction with one province is kinda pointless.

Edit:
Here is a link to a map of Europe around 1180 http://www.historyonmaps.com/ColourS...Europe1180.htm
Here is a link to a map of Europe around 1328 http://www.historyonmaps.com/ColourS...urope1328.html

Would there be a way to get rid of the Papal States Faction while keeping the pope? That could add room for another playable faction and be more historically accurate.

[Magefsx]

Having just played a few turns as the hungarians, ive noticed that the king doesnt have a proper model in battle (too much brittania made me forget this) and it might be an idea- albeit tedeous- if you could add king models (and maybe even princes) using the basis of the irish/english king model. twould be tres cool

Edit: @christian:
the papal states are historically accurate, and in fact they owned slightly more than rome! (as portrayed in MED1). they also add a bit of fun and flavour, from what i think.
Maybe in game they should get ancona as well, just to make the game harder for venice and sicily

Edit2:
Perhaps it is also an idea to give malta to KoJ/antioch as the knights of st john (hospitallers) did own it (cant remember whether its antioch or KoJ who have the hospitallers

Edit3:
did Milan/genoa not own the fortress of Caffa before it was taken by the mongels. it would definately make the milan campaign more interesting.
Caffa

In 1204–1261 and 1296–1307 Kaffa was temporarily under Genoa's rival doge state's—Venetian—rule.
In the late 13th century, traders from Genoa arrived and purchased the town from the ruling Golden Horde. They established a flourishing trading settlement called Caffa (or Kaffa), which virtually monopolised trade in the Black Sea area and served as the chief port and administrative centre for the Genoese settlements around the Sea. It came to house one of Europe's biggest slave markets.
Under Genoa since 1266, it was governed by a Genoese consul, who since 1316 was in charge of all Genoese Black Sea colonies

*the first map works better with the current layout; i was refering to the second
i agree about the genoa bisiness, although a simple rename would do the trick

Edit: sorry about all the edits!

[chris7ian]

im not sayin they didnt have vassal states im just saying in the mod atm in my campaign they control all of northern italy which imo is historically unaccurate. They are now very aggressive and will control all of milan, sicily, and venice before my campaign is over. Honestly I dont think the person telling everyone else to stop fighting christians would be able to wage war against christians and consolidate the italian peninsula. Plus not likely anyone will fight them over a long period of time because of the built in penalty for being excommed.

[Soul Firez]

Strangely i find the pope will actually cool his taking of italy quite early he jumps and grabs land but once milan is gone (this is his most hated faction has about the same standing as muslims do with the pope and the rest of the world for that matter) he usually only ends the game with 5 or 6 settlements not to bad if you consider them more as vasals rather than direct control .he also strangely had affects to various sides during the italian wars i think you under estimate the actual evil potential of the pope and his men during this period of history.

Milan in the game is actually combined faction of milan and genoa hence if you look at the faction symbol i gave them it has both factions symbol in the one symbol Milan is a faction it fought many wars against other italians yes it did historicly get controlled by HRE and this can happen in the game but we cant make things run to history to much you change it everytime you play they are combined to fit them in let us not forget we cant make enough factions to trully be historical if we where to try then HRE would actually need to be split into 8 seperate factions to trully represent there standing in this time period.

As for the king thing yes there is a slightly different king model i used for the welsh heroes battle model that is reskinned would make a good king for hungary i hadnt noticed i did do one for scotland who didnt but now thanks to my mod does have a king model

Malta was controled by the knights hospitalr i believe much later in the period if i rememebr right it was kinda there last out post when well the demise of the whole knightly order (templars gone tuetonics gone)

I can look at giving slightly different regions to factions but rememeber we dealing with an AI not bets on it doing historicly with them what the real faction did but i can try

I wasnt going to replace any factions as the actuall playing count of KGCM is only 28 timurids are in effect but dont appear being the 29th actually leaving 2 more spots that can be made the new world was a thought for another faction but 2 down sides its not big enough specially when you figure in my invasion of it which will have 2 or 3 other factions invade staggering it and to put in indian troops i would have to remove troops from other factions rosters at the limit is 500 troop types which KGCM is at now but keep the ideas coming guys lets examine them together

But chris7ian with the pope we did have him turtle and do nothing as mentioned in another thread if you really wish him to do so as i suggested there merely change in the descr_strat his AI label to default and he will be a peace loving man

[chris7ian]

Here is a screenshot showing the popes control of italy. http://screenshot.xfire.com/screensh...26061e7617.png I've since deleted the campaign so I cant say for sure who all the pope is at war with, but if I remember correctly he has been at war with Milan, Venice, Sicily, and possibly the HRE. This is 117 turns in and the year 1209, so if this continues one could assume the papal states will control all of sicilian empire and the rest of milan's provinces and a good part of venice as well. But my suggestion was in case you needed to drop a faction. If you guys prefer to have an aggressive pope go with it.

Edit: Soul i have noticed from those map links in my previous post that Saladin and Egypt had control of much more territories in the middle east than they start out with, while the turks had far less than they start out with. I know we have talked about Egypts position before. Maybe adding a few more provinces like mecca and medina and baghdad would help them becoming the force needed. And also cause the turks to push into Byzantine lands and the balkans more so than into the crusaders states and rebel provinces. leaving levant for the egyptians.

[Soul Firez]

Hmm yeah i can look at mixing up the regions in the middle east a bit i had hoped that by the time your speaking of the muslims there would have wiped out the crusader nations cant have them getting one up and driving the muslims from there own home lands.

Yes i see the pope does seem to be doing a little to well there i can without droping his Ai agression slow him down alot (it will drop his agression) he still has alot of half upkeep cost men so he can build an army quite fast and is most likely why he going a little strong ill put his recruitment on a par with a normal faction and that should keep him more in toe due to it will take him a long time to build to be in a position to invade if its ok with you ill send you an edu to test if this curbs him more to your tastes

SO no one likes the look of those captains ah well ill keep them in my game cause i hate the goofy looking heavy armour captain LOL.

[Ashton]

Can more regions be added or is it fulled ?

[Soul Firez]

There is only 1 more region that can be added i believe (id have to re count but pretty sure its 199 currently counting the sea )

[Soul Firez]

Ok i havent quite cracked the pope down just yet ( i got one more idea before killing his AI label which i dont want to do ) but here is a snap of something i am happy with as mentioned i have slowed the mongols just a bit to give kiev a fighting chance for a while specially if its a player so early game the mongols do move quite slow across eastern europe

But as they where a huge force in this period and threatened western europe also but have never managed to do this in game i did tweak them a bit to move on later game to follow a more dangerous to western europe so if your in a campaign dont let those mongols go unchecked for they will do this late game


Yes now they are the terrors of western europe as they should always have been (not many get this far in there campaign though) but see they dont get stuck fighting lithuania and poland they march on as they did in real .

[chris7ian]

I was reading a post in the third age mod section about catapult and ballista units. Basically they were pissed because human units are inaccurate and commit friendly-fire a lot and the AI units were basically spot on with their firing. They were talking about how the units changed after 1.4 which i guess is there mod version and not a vanilla patch? Anyways I have notice that when using catapults in open field battles I will have them fire on enemy troops at a distance. And it always seems that my catapults never fail to hit my troops directly in front of my catapults. The guy posting the aforementioned thread has some good illustrations:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c.../Ballistas.jpg
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c...Catapults2.jpg
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c...m/catapult.jpg
Illustrations done my caralampio.

I was wondering if anyone else seemed to have difficulties with siege equip in the field. I just stopped using them unless advancing on a town/castle but I hate having to make sure I got them close enough to my field troops to be able to bring them up when I decide the time is right to attack a settlement. I mentioned to Soul before about increase the distance on siege equipment as well, to simulate how medieval sieges would bombard a castle/town and not just the walls. That way you could thin out the defenses before the assault. I dont know if you could find a good balance though. Any thoughts?

[Soul Firez]

Hmm this is something i have never experienced but ill do alot of custom battles with catapults to test it out( i have hit my own men in the past but that was due to forgetting and leaving auto fire on and when the lines engaged my catapults where hitting my men and theres it was brutal

[Frunk]

I think it's necessary to join Britain and Scandinavia to the mainland so that AI Norway, Wales, Scotland and Ireland can participate in any crusades on the mainland and AI mainland factions can crusade to them in return. I know I've suggested this before and you rebutted by saying that the AI English can crusade, but I've done about half a dozen tests and it can only be the fact that they have mainland holdings that they can do this, while the others mentioned cannot. Use that spare region for Dover if you want something to hold the march of the French as Calais did in Dave's AoD (Dover better fits the period).

Also, I personally think a 2nd New World faction should be a greater priority than the Kalmar Union. If you're not going to add the land-bridges (or even if you are but choose not to add Dover), then the region could be given to whoever you choose. It's just a shame the "geography" that CA gave us for the New World is so bad that the Aztecs are inhabiting the Yucatan, which actually was Mayan, and the ACTUAL Aztec lands are not within the bounds of the map, so both can't exist unless the map is redrawn, which STILL wouldn't account for the fact that they have Central America trail off into nothingness and then an excuse for South America in a totally nonsensical position. Alas, I could of course rant about this for hours.

Thus, I think the region would best be placed on the "North America" and the faction the unique Apaches (even though their real lands are out of the map as well...). That would mean they have two starting settlements, could contest Cuba and probably resist the Aztecs. Combine the fact that they would both be invaded by Europeans (script and player), it would make for a very interesting theatre. Meanwhile, Milan should be replaced with the Republic of Genoa and the city of Milan should either be start rebel or be a part of the Reich as it truly was.

[FortressofRain]

Meanwhile, Milan should be replaced with the Republic of Genoa and the city of Milan should either be start rebel or be a part of the Reich as it truly was.

Here Here! This might be a submod I'd work on after I update a few other projects. I already got poermission to use the skins and have a good idea of what needs to be done.

[chris7ian]

Another thing I would suggest is when blockading a port in the new world, and that port is the enemy factions only port. Their income from the new world that is scripted in per turn should be negated. If they have multiple ports it should be reduced if at all possible.

For example as Ireland I blockaded the English port of Tollan and its was the only English holding in America. However, during that time if you went into console you could see England still recieved the 1000 florin per turn money from the script.

[chris7ian]

Paraphrasing the words of Adolf, the whole world should be part of the Reich.

As for the extra region I would recommend adding the Cherokee and giving them these regions:



Then I would recommend combining Caffa and the other province next to it together, or the timbuktu with the rebel province to the west of it together. And i would move change the name of Tollan to Tenochtitlan and merge the old Tenochtitlan with Tlaxcallan, under the name Tlaxcallan. This will allow the French to have Wasasa which they did when they controlled Louisana. The English could get Chagee because they controlled North Carolina where it was historically located. The Spanish could get Havana and Miccosukee and the Cherokee would have Kituwa. Im not sure how the script works, does armies spawn near the towns or do they have control of the towns? If the latter then I would leave Kituwa and Miccosukee under Cherokee control so they arent wiped out.

But i think what would be best is cutting america off the map and adding provinces to the north and east of the map. But that is prolly too time consuming. Hopefully the aforementioned idea wouldnt be too hard to do.

I dont think adding land bridges would improve gameplay for the Isles and Scandanavia. I think these small nations trying to field a stack for a crusade when they hardly can keep their own lands will lead to them being overrun by the English and HRE perhaps. None of those nations officially participated in the crusades to my knowledge. But if you so wish could you script a crusading army and fleet to spawn offshore of Levant, so many turns after a nation joins the crusade?

[Soul Firez]

Ok finally got the pope to behave himself a little nicer he still has teeth but here you see at turn 72 only 2 lands and he is not in any position to go for another for a very long time Ill upload these changes and the captains models tomorrow and thanks for the ideas guys i am looking at them

Fortress as already stated genoa and milan are used in this game as the one faction it would take about an hour to change the name and colour of the skins (hardly call for a submod LOL more of an optional add on if wanted.)can you make models or even skins??( we all use each others but it good to be able to do you own as need be I havent actually see you make anything in regards to a mod other than adapt files of others(again we all do that but again good if you able to do your own also

As for the apacheans or cheroke i am cool with the idea so the extra region would need to go there perhaps even take one away from the old world to add 2 but then i put the job to you off finding what i call clone units to remove to fit in the extra units for these indians a start would be peasant crossbow and militia crossbow an almost identical unit in looks and stats we would need to find say another 8 more men to throw away to adda roster in for indians.

PS in about a month ill be putting out an extension that will include the needed SD and UI files to add the extra factions in these are made soley by me and are hard as heck to make they will remain the property of hordes heroes and beyond submod and will not be able to be used by any other submod unless they ask my permission for said files (see forum rules for such ) basicly meaning your going to get 28 working factions with any other version of KGCM and heroes hordes and beyond will have 31 fully working factions(slave included).

Edit unless dave came out of retirement i would gladly share any work files etc with a man who is a modder