Muskets - How to beat them?

[kingtigertank]

In my experience online an army with musketeers is almost impossible to beat without musketeers yourself. If they are protected by a wall of pikes they are near invincible. I have found that archers are no match against muskets in a firefight (4 units of my scots guard in loose formation were wiped out by 4 units of musketeers while the musketeers suffered negligible losses). Also cavalry cannot assault the muskets because of the pikes and by the time they get to the muskets they have already sustained heavy losses and have suffered badly in morale. Muskets seem to be very effective and accurate. Also by the time infantry gets to the muskets, they have already been badly shot up (worse than cavalry) and have suffered huge morale damage, dismounted knights can be on wavering or even rout by the time they get to the musketeers, due to the musket's high range, which, if both players deploy at the front of their deployment zone, is high enough to start firing straight away, something which no bows can do. Overall, muskets seem to be very powerful, which is right because it is a gun, but it is too accurate. Also they are very cheap, the spanish and portugese musketeers are only 540 florins. I can find no way of beating them without using muskets myself. Any suggestions?

[Shasqua]

Get cavalry a safe distance from the enemy, then flank or get behind them. The pikemen will be in the musketeers' way, and will hopefully be facing the opposite direction.

[hereagain]

heard of horse archers before mate.

and what about camel gunners

[S-te-Fan]

Peasant archers?

[The Dutch Devil]

Get a trebuchet, they've got a long range and good accuracy. Protect them with pikes and watch big red balls of fire rain down on your enemy. with a bit luck this will force the camper to move and expose himself. Anticipate his movement and make a trap. Charge with 1 or 2 units of mounted sergeants in a vulnerable place draw his pikes away and use chivalric or knights with a similar charge bonus to finish them of!

Maybe canons are more effective but a trebuchet has more impact on a human player, at least from my point of view. If the enemy has a trebuchet I'll charge earlier because it looks very bad, with a cannon I'l take my time to approach and such.

[kingtigertank]

Horse archers get shot a lot by muskets. Camel Gunners are ok at first but there are less gunners in one unit than in a musketeers unit. Also they run out of ammo very fast. Trebuchets seem to be very inaccurate?

[Frederich Barbarossa]

Well try to just get artillery of your own. Also their pikes might get in front of their muskets to protect from cavalry, so if they do this make a quick assault. Id say to win a battle one must sacrifice something. Maybe have cavalry in the front and in the side and confuse him?

[kingtigertank]

In a battle chances are that the musket army will have it's own cavalry, which can combat your cavalry. 4 Tercio pikemen and 4 musketeers for a spanish army will only cost 3560 florins. In a 10k game that leaves plenty of money for cavalry. And your army will not likely consist of all cavalry. Pikes don't necessarily have to be in front of the musketeers. You can deploy musketeers in front of the pikemen but since the pikes themselves are very long, the musketeers can still be behind the tips of the pikes, and still fire. With the trebuchets, the whole pike and musket formation can advance and shoot the trebuchet crews easily.

[Rean]

I personaly never played multiplayer, but i would suggest taking few serpentines, or other more accurate cannons. They should easily break pike formation and reduce their morale, also try using a cheap unit for absorbing enemy fire and charge your infantry to their broken or thinned formation.

[Old_Scratch]

Light cavalry or horse archers are key in non-musket factions. Don't try to charge them head on but make a long flank out of range and close from the side or back. Unlike archers and crossbows, muskets can't fire at the flank and will need to wheel to face the cavalry. Force them to do so.

For example, use your mounted crossbowmen and run around behind his entire army. He either has to chase you with his cavalry, move one or more of his muskets to the rear so they have line of sight, or do nothing and take casualties. Every outcome is desirable, if his cavalry chases you just run and shoot em up, of he starts moving around his muskets it could allow a charge or allow you to be able to pick them off with light cav while they move unsupported. Also, as he moves them off to deal with your HA it will even the field up against your outmatched archers or crossbowmen.

Also, don't fear pikes, fear a pike micromanager. Your average player will park his muskets near his pikes and not move either no matter how the situation develops. If they aren't actually within the pike hedge you can still frontal light cav charge them and get away with it. Also rear and flank charges are just as deadly. If you are playing against someone who likes to micro his pikes, then this will be more difficult.

Number one mistake though is don't think you can out-shoot them. This means that you shouldn't even try, save your money for better uses. Scots Guard is one of the worst choices against muskets and one of the worst late period options, period. Too expensive and not equally as effective. Don't bother with expensive units like this when facing muskets, just take a few peasant xbows and maybe a unit of arquebus and use the rest of the money on light cav, HA, and upgrades.

You can't outshoot them, but you can outmaneuver, or just plain old overwhelm them with a properly timed charge.

Here's probably the easiest way to do it. Upgrade your heavy infantry and cavalry, take a few peasant xbows. 1) Run the HA to the enemy flank and wait for his guns to automatically wheel to fire on them. 2) Full Army Charge. 3) Win.

I win all the time even with factions like Scotland which has poor missile troops in every period, just maximize your other advantages and exploit what the enemy believes to be his greatest strength. Many times when I play the enemy muskets don't even last more than one minute into a game because of a well timed and aggressive light cav attack.

[{GrailKnight}]

This should be moved to the multiplayer section.

Anyway, i have never really had a problem with a player using Muskets, i usually take Russia and perform a successful rush, because i don't want to have a missile duel and i'm not just gonna stand there like a lot of players do. I do this around 15-20k if it's lower i like to take Venice. Also going with what Old_Scratch you should also use a meatshield unit to absorb muskets fire when you're moving out your infantry.

[VersionLangley]

I use Ha like old_scratch but it difficult since you have to station your main army right outside of musket range..otherwise you in for a long charge that might not be that effective.
ultimate solution: ban guns in your game or use early/high period

[Dave Strider]

I know a way NOT to beat Muskets.

I was recently playing a MP battle with a player named Shield425, he took Venice, I took France, it was 12,500 money, CWB rules, and this is what he did first.

I had 2 units of Arquebusiers guarded from the back by 2 units of Voulgier(Their pikes were in front of the Musketeers though). For some reason I don't know, Shield425 charged not Once, but TWICE at my Muskets with all of his cavalry. No . Four units of Broken Lances and Two units of General's Bodyguards went ripshit, all out "CHAAAAAAAARGE!" towards my Muskets, my Muskets retreated and his Cavalry got prodded-rather-painfully-with-a-pike TWICE!!! He must really have hated them.

[VersionLangley]

Its his fault for felling for the trap laid in plain sight in front of him

update: outside musket range is about 4 ranks of men behind deployment line on grassy flats

[KnightOfPortugal]

Jinetes, Stradiots or Huscarls... really.

[{GrailKnight}]

Jinetes, Stradiots or Huscarls... really.

Not Huscarls.

[KnightOfPortugal]

Not Huscarls.

It's not the best thing against Muskets, but from my experience they fare pretty good against muskets.

[{GrailKnight}]

It's not the best thing against Muskets, but from my experience they fare pretty good against muskets.

Against the A.I. maybe but not against a human player. Besides Huscarls aren't available for Late Era games. But even if the game is hosted for All Period, Huscarls shouldn't be used for that purpose.

[{GrailKnight}]

I don't know why this hasn't been moved to the MP section....

[KnightOfPortugal]

I did, and they did fine, both against my brother and a friend of mine. They should be used correctly though, otherwise you got dead huscarls.