IWTE - World editing - (General Discussion)

[Sauron puppet of Saruman]

Hi makanyane,

I suspect something with the normals as well; wish I started with 3ds max which would have been much easier for me to check, but milkshape is easier for moving building parts around. A bit rusty with milkshape as the last time I did m2tw modding was a few years ago...

I have uploaded the files: a clear example of the 'dark texture' is structure 132; as compared to the same type of model + texture in structure 128. I am convinced it happens at the milkshape stage of the model, not IWTE settings applied after; I have tried regrouping a 'dark texture' object into the same group as a normally working object, but still the part of the mesh that was bugged before continues to be bugged and dark; the normal part of the mesh remains normally shaded. Note the meshes in structures 128-130 used to be dark as well, but after some merging, they are now shaded properly.

Link to the 3 binaries:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://we.tl/t-raPAkes3Yg
(file is larger than the 10mb upload limit so used a link instead)

Thanks!

[Sauron puppet of Saruman]

I think I accidentally replied without logging in: if the message is lost, I have pm'ed you as a backup makanyane

[wilddog]

Hi Sauron. Which version of milkshape and which version of IWTE were you using please?

Ok saw it was 1.8.4 Mak will respond but you aren't setting the light/dark bone weights.

[Sauron puppet of Saruman]

I was using milkshape 1.8.4. Maybe that's the reason?

[makanyane]

OK - it's definitely the bone weighting light/dark thing, at some point you've got them set to 100% darker what you're viewing in your milkshape pic you posted is the smoothing group colour - you need 'draw vertices with bone colours' selected to see the bone assignment:



Your problem one shows clearly as assigned to darker, I switched that over to 100% lighter and replaced the structure then re-wrote it out again and IWTE seems to be behaving itself and returning what it was given...


Let me know if you need any help on how to change the weighting.

You could run the re-shading thing on it but that will get you a slightly different result as it darkens around any acute angles:


The buttons for that are on the animations tab: Obj world shading/effects inc anims, or Full world shading/effects inc anims, but be warned if you've not designed the buildings to suit that you might not get results you like (e.g. you can get unexpected dark/light bits if the way planes intersect is inconsistent)

[wilddog]

Sauron, one other thing. Depending on how much you really like milkshape and or want use/avoid blender you may want to try using the blender interfaces as you can do things on a larger scale within that.

[Sauron puppet of Saruman]

Thanks Makanyane, that was exactly the trick - it works now quite fine, but there's still a puzzle in that in the ms3d file before I import into IWTE, the mesh is assigned to 'lighter' and not darker. When I write ms3d in IWTE, and view that file, yes, it becomes all assigned to 'darker' and by reassigning to lighter it works. So I'm wondering whether there's some corruption in the reading of the original ms3d file and it's joint labels? Does IWTE work off identifying the name of the joints in ms3d or does it do something more technical than that? I may have been using my ms3d files in many iterations, merging things over and disassembling them to make some other structure again.

I got a picture here showing the assignment in the original ms3d file to the 'lighter' bone when I press 'show' (darker bone is purple coloured - and I know this is the case because when I assign some vertices to 'darker' it does change colour to purple). Unless I'm direly missing something?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Two more things: could I ask what do the values in the 'Obj world shading/effects inc anims' table mean? Everything I view seems to have +11.00 +9.00 +1.50 +2.00 reading the table left to right, top to bottom. Are these parameters for determining how shading is done in a manner that respects corners &c?
Also re blender, would I just use an ms3d exporter each time I do a model? I have to admit I find blender quite unfamiliar atm, because my primary modeling program is 3ds max. Is there anything equivalent for 3ds max? (Though, afaik, one thing I prefer ms3d over 3dsmax for doing these building models is the ability to select vertices across multiple groups with ease and do stuff with them.)

Thanks for all the help

[makanyane]

If you've got a repeatable problem, e.g. you've still got a copy of the ms3d that goes in light and comes out dark can you send me that ms3d file. At the moment the bits I've tested seem to work OK.

I think it is supposed to work just on the lighter/darker name, so having multiple bones due to merging shouldn't be a problem.

The to Blender/Max and back function doesn't use any of the ms3d buttons.
https://wiki.twcenter.net/index.php?...nts_in_Blender
Instructions are written for Blender as we don't have a copy of Max... but xHolyCrusader has tested in max.
I did open the whole .world you sent in Blender earlier - it will open as one file, which you might find useful!

The saving/adjusting shading system in Blender/Max uses 'vertex coloring'. In Blender you can only view/edit that on one group at a time.

In Blender you can select multiple groups in 'Object Mode' and then go into 'Edit Mode' for all of them - which gives you the ability to select/change verts across multiple groups at least for positional stuff. (I can only get the coloring/weighting to work for one group at a time though)

[Sauron puppet of Saruman]

Thanks for the info - I will muster the courage to switch to Blender/3ds on the next settlement I do.

Spent the day properly assigning vertex colours, and I've noticed that none of the other models have that problem (of the original ms3d not going into IWTE properly and ending up dark). Anyhow, I've attached the model I had trouble with in case you want to examine it yourself. Probably an oversight on my end.

Mesh File:
carn_dum_complex_24 f carn_dum connector.zip

P.s. As an aside, would you happen to know what files are needed to bring in a new sound as an effect through the 'collision effects' in IWTE? Have made successful visual effects before; just that new sounds are mute when loaded up in game. Been playing around with descr_campfires_brasiers for the effect_set, descr_structure_effects for effect (I gather effect_set and effect can be done in a number of files), descr_sounds_generic for the event, a .evt file in the sounds/effect_evt made using notepad++, and of course the actual .wave file inside the /sounds folder.

Thanks!

[makanyane]

Thanks for the info - I will muster the courage to switch to Blender/3ds on the next settlement I do.

Spent the day properly assigning vertex colours, and I've noticed that none of the other models have that problem (of the original ms3d not going into IWTE properly and ending up dark). Anyhow, I've attached the model I had trouble with in case you want to examine it yourself. Probably an oversight on my end.

Mesh File:
carn_dum_complex_24 f carn_dum connector.zip

P.s. As an aside, would you happen to know what files are needed to bring in a new sound as an effect through the 'collision effects' in IWTE? Have made successful visual effects before; just that new sounds are mute when loaded up in game. Been playing around with descr_campfires_brasiers for the effect_set, descr_structure_effects for effect (I gather effect_set and effect can be done in a number of files), descr_sounds_generic for the event, a .evt file in the sounds/effect_evt made using notepad++, and of course the actual .wave file inside the /sounds folder.

Thanks!

That ms3d looks like it should work. I'll try testing with it tomorrow

Sounds - AFAIK should work the same as other effects for adding to the world - just without using the 'light emitting' setting! If it's not already in the .world list to select from you need to add it to the list by "Amend effect List" button first, that just needs the _set name.

Could you try and separate out the issues, e.g. rename your effect you're experimenting with to replace something you know already turns up in the game triggered from the .world file (doors?). If that works but adding it via IWTE doesn't let us know as there may be a bug in the way we're handling that. (I tend to play with sound off, so haven't gotten into sound effects!)

I didn't look at your .world to see how many effects it's already got, but there is a limit of 69 per complex, and you only have one complex currently . You could run the reset complexes thing... but that will change your structure names, which might be a pain if you're used to which ones are which and are still using milkshape.

[AnthoniusII]

Question: _Tartaros_ tried to import new houses types and new textures. He put all techtree buildings under the name "roman" in a separated folder.
The result was that all those buildings (greek=southern european for game) were not in the battle model of the settlement.
When i renamed that folder. I saw these pictures.



What you see in new textures was missing when techtree buildings were in their own folder named "roman" before building's name.
What you see in vanilla textures were replaced by new houses models but the settlement looked empty.
Question inorder to re-texture all vanilla buildings in "roman" aka byzantine style what should i do?
Find all buildings one by one?
Retexture them and place them in southern_european folder (we have another set of textures for that culture different from byzantine).
In any case all buildings (random and techtree folder of them ) should be inside each culture's settlements folder?

[makanyane]

Question: _Tartaros_ tried to import new houses types and new textures. He put all techtree buildings under the name "roman" in a separated folder.
The result was that all those buildings (greek=southern european for game) were not in the battle model of the settlement.
When i renamed that folder. I saw these pictures.

The folder name only matters in that it has to match what the name in the path inside the .worldpkgdesc files to find the .world

If the entire folder including .worldpkgdesc files was outside of the /settlements folder and not listed in pacakagedb.txt then those .worldpkgdesc files wouldn't be read.

Question inorder to re-texture all vanilla buildings in "roman" aka byzantine style what should i do?
Find all buildings one by one?
Retexture them and place them in southern_european folder (we have another set of textures for that culture different from byzantine).

In any case all buildings (random and techtree folder of them ) should be inside each culture's settlements folder?

NO
Please read the wiki article here about how settlements (and techtrees) are selected and also the articles about .worldpkgdesc and techtrees.

The things you need to check are:
A. do your new settlements actually have the techtree slots added? To do that load in IWTE and go to 'Gameobjects' tab and 'View TechTrees'

B. Is there a .worldpkgdesc file for each of the cultures you want to use a certain techtree .world, with the correct path to that .world in it?

Once you've done that and got the vanilla looking buildings appearing on the battlemap. IF you don't want to change the shape. Then just find out which textures they are using, and for every faction you want to use a different texture, place that texture with the SAME NAME as the vanilla one in blockset/textures/faction_variations/faction_name

(obviously for the culture with most factions, just put a changed version of the same-named texture in the mods blockset/textures folder)

[Sauron puppet of Saruman]

AnthoniusII,

You would have to first find the texture files of the texture you want (I presume byzantine?)
To my knowledge, there's several ways from there.

Copy the textures you want and put them in the main blockset/textures folder, but with a unique name. You could then try edit the .world file for the settlements and go to "Structures" tab -> find the texture names which reference the vanilla ones, and rename them to the name of the new texture (using "change texture info")
This way should mean those modified techtree buildings will always display the Roman texture you want.

Alternatively, you could copy the textures into a faction or culture specific folder. Either blockset/textures/variations/<culture_name> or blockset/textures/faction_variations/<faction_name>.

No need to assign textures to the models individually, but you just need to get it pointing to the proper texture. There are only 4-5 normally used in vanilla techtree buildings.

[AnthoniusII]

AnthoniusII,

You would have to first find the texture files of the texture you want (I presume byzantine?)
To my knowledge, there's several ways from there.

Copy the textures you want and put them in the main blockset/textures folder, but with a unique name. You could then try edit the .world file for the settlements and go to "Structures" tab -> find the texture names which reference the vanilla ones, and rename them to the name of the new texture (using "change texture info")
This way should mean those modified techtree buildings will always display the Roman texture you want.

Alternatively, you could copy the textures into a faction or culture specific folder. Either blockset/textures/variations/<culture_name> or blockset/textures/faction_variations/<faction_name>.

No need to assign textures to the models individually, but you just need to get it pointing to the proper texture. There are only 4-5 normally used in vanilla techtree buildings.

The problem is not their textures. The problem is that those buildings you see with different textures are invisible when we load a battle with a modified settlement. There are empty spots where army baracks , town center, market etc should be. All that is visible now are the "new" additions aka the new walls and houses.

[AnthoniusII]

Question: Building textures like the walls must be transformed from .dds to texture by IWTE or the dds2_texture.converter that we use for models suits as well?
Also do building textures need MIP maps like human textures require or not?
This is my first attempt to create Byzantine walls ussing a photo fromn Thessalinica's Theodosian Walls i live near by.

The problem is that when i zoom out some parts of the walls look darker (those that are in greater distance) and those that are closet to camera look brighter.

[wilddog]

Hi,
Yes, world textures are converted DDS files.
yes world textures do contain mipmaps (I just corrected this)
Not sure I can see the darkening issue you mention. it could be one of two (or more things) things :-
1) If you have models with faces which are too close. At a distance they will start to interfere with each other. To get around it any faces need to be approx 40cm or further apart. It tended to show up on roofs and things like that.
2) there is an inbuilt vertex shading in the vanilla models. This is part of a discussion with Sauron above. IWTE resets these but its generally just to a standard value. Unfortunately it can be sometimes too light or dark v other objects or v individual preferences. I need to add more criteria on setting that. As part of that vertex shading the models generally had some corner shading (its part of the same vertex shading). This corner shading can normally be seen on the buttress cornering as it applied to internal corners. Again I need to add some further criteria to that within IWTE but its on my list of amendments.

[AnthoniusII]

The parts with different lighting are ful straight walls of vanilla settlement. It seams tha long line walls are blocks of smaller ones and when zoom out/zoom in there is that difference in lighting the texture. Its strange though because in vanilla textures that lighting issue never apears.

[wilddog]

Can you post a picture of what's happening and if possible the texture and normal you are using and tell us the vanilla model?

[AnthoniusII]

Sure
Also..I based the textures on the vanilla ones. Arround the gate there are stone blocks that in my texture i replaced them with bricks.But despite i haven't tuch the model of the gate those new bricks do not apear. I loaded a similar texture from another mod and the gate issue exists there too , the stone arch does not apear on the model despite the fact that the texture simply replace the same area.

[makanyane]

OK I see what you mean, please could you post your texture and the normal.texture?

Do double check you have supplied a normal.texture with the correct name! I have a vague memory of seeing this before and think it was to do with it not finding the normal??!?? Or maybe not actually having the correct pink/blue directional type normal...


@Sauron puppet of Saruman
I do get the same issue with your ms3d! If I load it into a .world I get the very dark effect (@Anthonius this is not the same as your issue)

If I write it back to ms3d it shows as assigned 100% dark, if I switch that and reload it, it works fine again!! I have no idea why, as I can't visually spot anything wrong with your file, so this will need a bit more research...