Uhlans

[Danweck]

In an effort to broaden my horizens a bit, I have been experimenting with uhlans recently. With the competitive Empire scene having significant amounts of light infantry running about, and the hordes of light dragoons roaming the grassy flatlands, it seems that light cavalry with a good punch on the charge would be worthwhile. That and getting a rear charge with even a significantly depleted squad does horrible things to the morale of their victims.

Prussia and Poland get the standard Uhlan, Austria gets the super Uhlan, France gets the Uhlan by a different name, and Maratha gets the Baergir Lancer, who just an Uhlan with a hat that is not as cool.

In my experiance, Prussia and Poland have made out the best in this setup, as they have access to the cheapest uhlans as well as light drags to support them.

Austria looks like they have made out well with the higher stat line Uhlan, but the higher cost makes them seem less worthwhile. The higher attack and charge bonus seem redundant, as most things will die on impact to the the cheaper uhlans charge. The defense is mildy helpful, but uhlans should not be hanging around in combat anyway. The higher morale is the only really useful thing that one gets out of the higher cost.

France gets the nice cheap lancer option, but without light drags to deter other cavalry, I am not sure if they can be expected to be as survivable as those of the other European powers.

Maratha has a lot to gain from their lancers. Probably more than most, as without light infantry of their own, something to chase down everyone elses is a godsend. Sipahi are not well suited for extended chases, and Pindari are ineffective against stronger rifles like Nizim rifles and greenjackets (or basic rifles with even 1 or 2 xp bars)

Have not played with the US lancer in any serious way yet, so I will leave that to other people to explore.

Experiments with taking three Uhlan squads with the support of 3 light drag squads has proven rather successful in the set of games I have tried them out in. Another move I have used with some success, albeit a more risky one, is to have the uhlans wait behind a squad of loost formation troops, and then after the loose squad has taken a volley from something, having the Uhlands charge through the loose formation into the enemy.

What does everyone else think of Uhlans? Any tips tricks or wisdom? Is the money spent on uhlans not worth it in light of the fact that a light drag squad is almost the same cost?

[hanibalthegreat]

hmm ive been playing as natives for a couple games and thier basic cav is prety much a lancer but they have no light drags so i usualy charge one unit first to soak up damage and then charge the rest in

ps. i usualy have 8-10 cav units as natives

[Keiichi]

I generally play as France, and I used to love uhlans, they made up the majority of my cavalry arm. Their high speed, great stamina (formerly anyways, more on that later), superb charge, and comparatively low price (at the time) made them my favorite cavalry. A pair of lancers could seriously delay a much larger force by constantly having one charge while the other retreated. Changes since patch 1.4 however, have taken away the majority of their strengths.

First and foremost, is cost. I can't recall their exact price (I think for France it was 660?), but uhlans used to be one of the cheapest regular army cavalry units. This is no longer the case; not only have uhlans been slightly increased in price to 690 (for France, for most other countries it is 700 I think), but more importantly, other cavalry units have dropped dramatically in price. Regiments of horse used to cost 700, now they cost a mere 620. French missile cavalry were also in the 700 range, now they are priced as low as 520.

Why does this matter? Because the aforementioned units all have much more utility than lancers. Lancers are really a one trick pony (no pun intended ). They don't melee well, they have low morale (well, it's better now at 6 than the 5 morale they used to have), and naturally don't have a ranged attack. A regiment of horse may be slower, but its charges are just as effective (stats may say differently, but in actual battle the general effects are still similar), its morale is good, and its melee is excellent. Why would I pay more for a unit that can do less? To use the speed to help chase light dragoons? I'd rather take hussars for that, which are not only much cheaper, but have better morale, melee, and their charge is pretty good too. Even if your uhlans caught the dragoons, they wouldn't be able to win the melee due to the numbers advantage of dragoons; you'd have to rely on the charge doing enough damage to even the odds. If this doesn't happen, you have to retreat and then get shot in the back by pursuing dragoons, or bring up supporting infantry/cavalry ASAP.

Furthermore, as you pointed out already, light dragoons are only 10 points more, and a much better investment. 30% larger unit size, 90 range carbines (ridiculous...), high speed and the stamina advantage that uhlans used to enjoy. I say 'used to' because uhlans, since patch 1.4, have had the 'Good Stamina' trait removed. This is my next great beef with uhlans in their current form.

For a unit that relies entirely on being able to perform repeated charges, one would think they would use high quality, high stamina horses (which they did in 1.3 and before). Unfortunately, this perhaps made too much sense to Jack Lusted? So it was removed from uhlans and instead light dragoons, which according to their unit description were supposed to have low quality horses, have the fastest horses with the best stamina. Yeah, being able to fire and reload on the move at 90 range wasn't enough of an advantage. A light dragoon charge can actually be more effective than an uhlan charge because first, you can shock the unit with 60 carbines firing into their ranks, and then you get the morale shock of the charge itself.

Sorry Danweck, you asked for tips on uhlan usage, and instead I went into a rant . I guess my main point is that your last question, "is the money spent on uhlans not worth it," is less a question and more an unfortunate truth. Uhlans are not worth bringing to the field. If your opponent likes to leave his units standing motionless with their backs to you, then uhlans work pretty well! But, so would any other cavalry unit.

[Hood187]

Unfortunately, I have to agree to every point Keiichi made. For just a bit more money over a Uhlan you get a LD that - as of patch 1.4 - is more versatile and will win a melee (cavalry) engagement against anything besides the elite cav. I personally haven't used Uhlans since they took off the Stamina bonus, been using Regiment of Horse instead.

[Hekko]

Keiichi pretty much said it all, they are not so much better to warrant all the downsides that are associated with them.

[LiN]

Uhlans have too low morale. They'll smash into a unit and then be utterly cut down because of their horrible hand to hand combat capabilities. And of course, they'll route.

The only lancer units that are decent are Bosniaks (Prussians), Winged Hussars (Poland), and Sipahis (Ottoman/Maratha). The latter 2 are actually really good. The key to using lancer units is to not stop charging. After you smash into a unit, order them to keep driving through by charging units behind the units you smashed or withdraw and come back again.

[aletoledo]

It's hard to followup in this thread when Keiichi gave an excellent analysis of the situation. I thought you made an excellent post, so I would like to contribute at least something to the discussion.

Another move I have used with some success, albeit a more risky one, is to have the uhlans wait behind a squad of loost formation troops, and then after the loose squad has taken a volley from something, having the Uhlands charge through the loose formation into the enemy.

I've found that put a cav along the side of the unit is equally the same as putting them behind a loose formation unit. When you put the unit behind the loose unit, you're going to end up catching a few stray bullets for no real gain. If you put the unit along the side, you still get to charge the moment the enemy unit is reloading, so you really don't lose any of the initiative.

Now you may be saying that you have another loose unit at the sides of these units, so there is no room for a cav unit. The interesting thing about this is that it doesn't have to in the actual battle line, just filling the gaps so to say. The nice thing about this, is that if the enemy unit has engaged your loose unit, you can then safely advance your cav forward into no mans land, because the enemy unit doesn't change targets (at least in my experience). You could then have your cav sit in no mans land while the two lines shoot it out, without taking causalities since they're not the direct target of any of the enemy units and they're no in the way of any of the bullets (they're off to the side slightly). If the enemy then manually aims his unit at your cav, then his unit stands up, rotates a bit and then presents a bit of a flank to your loose unit that has been engaging them all along.

This works a lot better for grenadiers, since the cav isn't going to simply park there, they're going to charge into the enemy line. Grenadiers though can park there and start lobbing grenades without being the target ever.

[Synoptic]

Yeah Keiichi hit the nail on the head. In my experience I've found them to be better as anti cav as opposed to just charging line. Hold a unit with a medium or heavy cav then swing the lancer to the rear makes for a very quick rout (faster than sending a L Goon to fire the rear to set up and fire + L Goons like to shoot their own men). Infantry squares just tear lancers apart though.

[MatrixStorm]

I don't use cavalry much in the game.
Although I have 2 units of cavalry in important, big armies.
The only thing they do is supporting and taking out artillery.
Cavalry is useless against an opponent with bayonets, so the only time my cavalry charges in, is when I'm losing.

[YourDentist]

I don't use cavalry much in the game.
Although I have 2 units of cavalry in important, big armies.
The only thing they do is supporting and taking out artillery.
Cavalry is useless against an opponent with bayonets, so the only time my cavalry charges in, is when I'm losing.

I too used to think of cavalry as inferior to be generally infantry in E:TW, but later i have been more fond of them.

My cav usually have more kills than my inf in any battle. That's enough for me. I had to unlearn the Rome:TW method for cavalry first.

[Valkierei]

I don't use cavalry much in the game.
Although I have 2 units of cavalry in important, big armies.
The only thing they do is supporting and taking out artillery.
Cavalry is useless against an opponent with bayonets, so the only time my cavalry charges in, is when I'm losing.

useless? achieving cavalry superiority is akin to achieving air superiority in modern warfare. if the cav dominates the back of the enemy. he'll be forced to square constantly whilst being shot at. gg for him. lol. 40%, 8~10 units of my army is cavalry. uhlans are good yes. but hussars are sufficient.

[hannibalic]

useless? achieving cavalry superiority is akin to achieving air superiority in modern warfare. if the cav domin ates the back of the enemy. he'll be forced to square constantly whilst being shot at. gg for him. lol. 40%, 8~10 units of my army is cavalry. uhlans are good yes. but hussars are sufficient.

Eight to ten?!?!?

[eleftherios]

Put them in Diamond formation and charge from the flank OR put them in a thin double line and charge from the rear. They are good if the units they charge are either:
i) half decimated Line infantry OR
ii)light infantry while they are not in diamond formation OR
iii)light melee cavalry while in diamond formation OR
iv)light missile cavalry while in a three ranked formation (minimises missile loses & packs a great punch over a decent area, since missile cavalry must be deployed in double rank formations for their shooting to be effective).
v)heavy melee cavalry charge in the flank or rear in diamond formation, (might need to run away enough so that you tired them before charging).

EDIT: BTW i'd like to point out that Bargir Lancers have the "Good stamina" trait.

[Danweck]

So, overall the verdict seems to be that while there is a limited scope of use on the use of lancer cav, there is little that the lancer can do that cannot be achieved by a light drag squad. Cav seems to have a strong role in most armies, It just seems that the light drag is THE go to cavalry unit to satisfy just about every function we expect cav to do. They are capable of shooting down other cav choices, can melee most lights to paste with a good charge, and can mercilessly taunt line due to the higher range. Absent such a universally good cavalry choice lancer cav may have a bigger role, but when the carbine volley from drags can be just as devestating as a lance charge and served from a safe distance, it is hard to justify the lance squads.

In conclusion, I hate what light drags do to the cav environment in this game. Light Dragoon Delenda Est.

[Valkierei]

So, overall the verdict seems to be that while there is a limited scope of use on the use of lancer cav, there is little that the lancer can do that cannot be achieved by a light drag squad. Cav seems to have a strong role in most armies, It just seems that the light drag is THE go to cavalry unit to satisfy just about every function we expect cav to do. They are capable of shooting down other cav choices, can melee most lights to paste with a good charge, and can mercilessly taunt line due to the higher range. Absent such a universally good cavalry choice lancer cav may have a bigger role, but when the carbine volley from drags can be just as devestating as a lance charge and served from a safe distance, it is hard to justify the lance squads.

In conclusion, I hate what light drags do to the cav environment in this game. Light Dragoon Delenda Est.

heavy cav is heavy, dragoons are harassment. hussars of all kinds are for light inf.

and uhlans, they rout entire flanks, entire armies. mass rout.

[SMIDSY]

heavy cav is heavy, dragoons are harassment. hussars of all kinds are for light inf.

and uhlans, they rout entire flanks, entire armies. mass rout.

Very true. All of the problems I ever had with lancers could be chalked up to me not using them correctly. They are spectacular against light infantry and militia. And when they hit the flank or rear of a line infantry regiment, hoo boy!

[Valkierei]

Very true. All of the problems I ever had with lancers could be chalked up to me not using them correctly. They are spectacular against light infantry and militia. And when they hit the flank or rear of a line infantry regiment, hoo boy!

smack them against line infantry in line formation. from any angle.

[The_Valiant]

I like Winged Hussars. They have better morale, melee, and attack stats. Even if they are high costs, they are the reason I use the Polish Army. For me, filling all the spaces doesnt matter, but rather having an effective, trained army that works is important. And Winged Hussars work.

[ilikepie]

Just use winged hussars. Stronger, more armor, and they look like giant flying ponies.

[Hekko]

I find household cav more desireable than winged hussars but then again I don't play poland