"First Age: Total War" (Gondolin preview)

[Vhaelor]

The Orc art work looks good but to me it just does not fit the discription of what these creatures are suppose to look like.They look to neat and tidy for creatures created from dead and mutilated elves,slime and dirt.They are suppose to be foul, deformed,frightening and violent creatures.I just don't get that feeling from your concept of them.

Don't worry. Concept art is only to help the modelers get an idea on how to model units, later on us concept artists go ahead and do the texturing, making sure that the orcs look like the orcs we want them to be

I'm quite sure we'll have them look quite neat before we show any pictures And yes, we're working hard on texturing at the moment, as there is a lot of work in this area to be done

[OSDEA7]

Don't worry. Concept art is only to help the modelers get an idea on how to model units, later on us concept artists go ahead and do the texturing, making sure that the orcs look like the orcs we want them to be

I'm quite sure we'll have them look quite neat before we show any pictures And yes, we're working hard on texturing at the moment, as there is a lot of work in this area to be done

The present units are beautiful.I was just worried that the ORC's that are suppose to be blood thirsty,evil demons that strike fear and despair on all other races were going to be implemented as a normal every day bad guy race with a functioning civilization.They should represent horror and extermination to other races.(Kinda sounds like Hitler and the Reich)

But i'm sure you guys will not let me down.

Great work so far.I look forward to this mod with great anticipation.



Just out of curiosity,Will you guys be modding the bow string and arrow for the archers.TATW added this feature and i must say it has really added to the realism of the mod.

[Vhaelor]

Just out of curiosity,Will you guys be modding the bow string and arrow for the archers.TATW added this feature and i must say it has really added to the realism of the mod.

This is something I sadly cannot answer mate, and I believe Skiph is soon done with his business trip

and now to some eye candy which is totally unrelated to this mod

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Skiph]

Astor

Do you guys need any help translating stuff into english? This mod looks brilliant and I'd love to help. I know Russian pretty well (I'm from Ukraine) and I know english fairly well too.
I also help with the Call of Warhammer translation so I have some experience, however tiny

Certainly it is useful to us the help in transfer.
Give we will be written off privately and all we will discuss!

paradamed
Thanks for a praise!

OSDEA7

.If you don't mind me asking,will you be limited just to the map shown in future upgrades or do you plan to expand.

Our card has turned out enough the large sizes. It included all earths Belerianda and the most part of Valinora.
It is natural to eat a technical error in geography.
Central Valinor on global cards is flush with Haradom. We had to reduce proportions of Valinora and the centre left on against a mouth of Geliona!
Ver th account of these proportions we argued two years, yet do not send the compromise between geographical reliability and technical possibilities of game.

Samples of First age globe below.

To make a global card of the world of Ardy it is possible...
But even at its maximum sizes resolved by game, from it it is necessary to throw out a heap of locations.
For example same Gondolin! After all in proportions of a global card, a ring of mountains, its associates, will be in size with Gondolin!
I hope my thought it is clear!

The Orc art work looks good but to me it just does not fit the discription of what these creatures are suppose to look like.They look to neat and tidy for creatures created from dead and mutilated elves,slime and dirt.They are suppose to be foul, deformed,frightening and violent creatures.I just don't get that feeling from your concept of them.

It only sketches. On structures will be both a dirt, and slime, and a rust. And the main thing-animation!

This picture is from Tolkiens concept art of First Age
Tolkien's Orcs

You are mistaken!
What on yours have forgotten in the First epoch of Frodo and Sam?
Even if in crowd of orks simply hobity-whence by it then it is undertaken?

The humanoid, non-maritime race of Orcs that exists in Middle-earth is J. R. R. Tolkien's invention. The term 'Orc' is usually capitalised in Tolkien's writing, but not necessarily in other sources. In Tolkien's writing, Orcs are of human shape, but smaller than Men, ugly, and filthy. In a private letter, Tolkien describes them as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes". Although not dim-witted, they are portrayed as dull and miserable beings, who are only able to destroy, not to create.
Orcs are first described in The Tale of Tinúviel as "foul broodlings of Melko [sic] who fared abroad doing his evil work". In The Fall of Gondolin Tolkien wrote that "all that race were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal, and to nothing were they more fain than to aid in the basest of the purposes of Melko."
This is not from the movie but from Tolkien writings.

We are always glad to receive consultation, but especially we appreciate citations for our memory can deform all!
With pleasure we will consider your updatings - but after you will give references to citations!

ChaosReigns

According to that illustration's creator, John Howe, that's a picture of Mordor Orcs, possibly even a band going to the Black Gate, as he mentions the "plight of the Hobbits".

It is absolute truly!

OSDEA7

No ,i don't quite want them to look like what Tolkien describes,but i don't want to see them dressed in neat clean uniforms and armor like they have some kind of organized civilization either.

We too do not want it. But they will be more civilised than orks of the Third epoch. And we will make, everything that the player would have to their a feeling of disgust!

Just out of curiosity,Will you guys be modding the bow string and arrow for the archers.TATW added this feature and i must say it has really added to the realism of the mod.

We already discussed it in a command circle. Certainly we will pay attention to this question.

Narkaz

I really like your orc concepts, I believe this is mush more how Tolkien imagined his orcs then how they did it in the movies. Its a good thing you don't let your imagination be narrowed by how they did it in Peter Jackson's movies.
Great work!

We try to create unique style. But without divergences with the primary source.
Thanks for a praise!

ChaosReigns

They look really good. Kudos to you for taking the initiative and making some unique First Age Orcs for the mod

Thanks for a praise!

JuL14n

I approve their look!

As long as being an Orc is not about being big and green like Shrek, it's good.
PJ's orcs are fantastic, but this is First Age, and can't be inspired by a movie.

Good luck mates, I will keep my eye on this mod.

rep+

Thanks for support!

NikeBG

Indeed, these Orcs look much closer to actual Elves being mutilated by Melkor. Though perhaps some more hints could be added, maybe scars or something. I'm not quite sure what Tolkien meant exactly, maybe it might have indeed been just a "mental mutilation", if I might say so (and I admit I haven't read the Silmarillion since years), though some physical traces could nevertheless be a good addition.

Will be both scars and mutilations! But it will be already visible on structures and models!
Thanks for support!


Aruthiel

Don't worry. Concept art is only to help the modelers get an idea on how to model units, later on us concept artists go ahead and do the texturing, making sure that the orcs look like the orcs we want them to be

I'm quite sure we'll have them look quite neat before we show any pictures And yes, we're working hard on texturing at the moment, as there is a lot of work in this area to be done

It is absolute truly!

[OSDEA7]

Orcs

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This picture is from Tolkiens concept art of First Age
Tolkien's Orcs

The humanoid, non-maritime race of Orcs that exists in Middle-earth is J. R. R. Tolkien's invention. The term 'Orc' is usually capitalised in Tolkien's writing, but not necessarily in other sources. In Tolkien's writing, Orcs are of human shape, but smaller than Men, ugly, and filthy. In a private letter, Tolkien describes them as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes". Although not dim-witted, they are portrayed as dull and miserable beings, who are only able to destroy, not to create.
Orcs are first described in The Tale of Tinúviel as "foul broodlings of Melko [sic] who fared abroad doing his evil work". In The Fall of Gondolin Tolkien wrote that "all that race were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal, and to nothing were they more fain than to aid in the basest of the purposes of Melko."

This is not from the movie but from Tolkien writings.

[ChaosReigns]

dead and mutilated elves

Mutilated yes, but not dead. I would also venture to guess that the "mutilation" was, as well as including torments of the flesh, a good deal of mental and spiritual alteration. Making someone ugly by torture is not going to automatically make them evil and likewise someone made ugly by mutilation is not going to have ugly children necessarily (anymore than a war veteran who's lost his arm would always have one-armed children after the fact).

There's a certain (very politically incorrect) description that Tolkien gives of Orcs and it doesn't include anything about them looking like they do in the movies. I think that this interpretation is probably closer to the books-lore.

That's just my two cents though.

EDIT:

According to that illustration's creator, John Howe, that's a picture of Mordor Orcs, possibly even a band going to the Black Gate, as he mentions the "plight of the Hobbits".

http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/g...p?image_id=393

I don't disagree that Orcs were ugly, dirty creatures. All I'm saying is that it's likely that Tolkien didn't especially imagine them as they were in the movies, given his descriptions.

Orcs are first described in The Tale of Tinúviel as "foul broodlings of Melko [sic] who fared abroad doing his evil work". In The Fall of Gondolin Tolkien wrote that "all that race were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal, and to nothing were they more fain than to aid in the basest of the purposes of Melko."

Other than being ugly, Tolkien changed most of his conceptualization about Orcs in later drafts of his stories. They definitely weren't spawned out of the earth according to his latest ideas, they were either created from corrupted Elves (the version presented in the Silmarillion) or corrupted Men (the version Tolkien liked the best).

Tolkien describes them as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes".

This doesn't sound anything like how they were portrayed in the movies, but maybe that's not what you're going for either?

[OSDEA7]

The history of the orc's

Within the deepest pits of Utumno, in the First Age of Stars, it is said Melkor committed his greatest blasphemy. For in that time he captured many of the newly risen race of Elves and took them to his dungeons, and with hideous acts of torture he made ruined and terrible forms of life. From these he bred a Goblin race of slaves who were as loathsome as Elves were fair.

These were the Orcs, a multitude brought forth in shapes twisted by pain and hate. The only joy in these creatures was in the pain of others, for the blood that flowed within Orcs was both black and cold. Their stunted form was hideous; bent, bow-legged and squat. Their arms were long and strong as the apes of the South, and their skin was black as wood that has been charred by flame. The jagged fangs in their wide mouths were yellow, their tongues red and thick, and their nostrils and faces were broad and flat. Their eyes were crimson gashes, like narrow slits in black iron grates behind which coal burn.

The Orcs were fierce warriors, for they feared more greatly their master than any enemy; and perhaps death was preferable to the torment of Orcish life. They were cannibals, ruthless and terrible, and often their rending claws and slavering fangs were gored with the bitter flesh and the foul black blood of their own kind. Orcs were spawned as thralls of the Master of Darkness; therefore they were fearful of light, for it weakened and burned them. Their eyes were night seeing, and they were dwellers of foul pits and tunnels. In Melkor's Utumno and in every foul dwelling in Middle-earth they multiplied. More quickly than any other beings of Arda their progeny came forth from the spawning pits. At the end of the First Age of Stars was the War of Powers in which the Valar came to Utumno and broke it open. They bound Melkor with a great chain, and destroyed Melkor's servants in Utumno and with them most of the Orcs. Those who survived were masterless and went wandering.

It's all upon interpretation.Regardless,making them more human to me would take away the fantasy of another world or possible ancient age.Might as well make another MTW II mod.
Point is no matter what info you find on ORC's they are explained as terrible,filthy,violent,evil,killers and cannibals.The concept which he purposed just seems to civilized to be ORC's of Middle Earth.They would make good half ORC's.But what the hay!Just my opinion and it's their mod.

No ,i don't quite want them to look like what Tolkien describes,but i don't want to see them dressed in neat clean uniforms and armor like they have some kind of organized civilization either.

The units are beautiful,I just hate to see it stray from what most have always thought of Middle Earth.

[Dak'kon]

Question! Question! I can't find the link for the russian site! Am I Stupid?

[Korvin Flame]

Site:
http://internetwars.ru

Forum:
http://internetwars.ru/forum/viewforum.php?f=44

[OSDEA7]

Skiph,Thank you for the replies.Like i said earlier the units are beautiful.It sounds to me that you will follow the Lore pretty close and thats great.I certainly will follow your work with great anticipation.

3 questions i have now if you care to answer.

1.What will you be using as an AI.Their are several out or will you be making your own?Most AI's are to passive,meaning that they never attack.You as the player have to initiate all attacks .Some are to aggressive meaning the enemy will attack even if greatly out numbered or over matched.AI is the most difficult part of the mod to master.

2.A question of a simple but i think important to the reality feeling of a mod.For archers,will you mod the bow strings and arrows on the bows?This simple modification and i don't mean the ease of creating it but added detail really brings the mod to life.

3.This question i do not know if it is possible.Can you make the AI attack a city or fortress right away instead of waiting out a siege?Example when i am attacked i commit to battle right away so the siege does not kill my soldiers with out a fight.This way i can destroy siege equipment and thin them down with archers for one or two turns before they actually commit their siege equipment.I would rather see them attack and commit siege equipment on the first turn.

Answers to these questions would be appreciated.

[Skiph]

OSDEA7

What will you be using as an AI.Their are several out or will you be making your own?Most AI's are to passive,meaning that they never attack.You as the player have to initiate all attacks .Some are to aggressive meaning the enemy will attack even if greatly out numbered or over matched.AI is the most difficult part of the mod to master.

It agree that that is enough complicated question.
Behaviour AI in fight should be borrowed.
While these have nobody to be engaged. And we yet didn't consider variants. While these have nobody to be engaged. With AI on map is easier. Here we are capable to register the necessary activity, some events we will support with scripts.

2.A question of a simple but i think important to the reality feeling of a mod.For archers,will you mod the bow strings and arrows on the bows?This simple modification and i don't mean the ease of creating it but added detail really brings the mod to life.

It will - be final I do not see with it problems.
If you have ready assemblage-throw to me in private. You will simplify to me job.

3.This question i do not know if it is possible.Can you make the AI attack a city or fortress right away instead of waiting out a siege?Example when i am attacked i commit to battle right away so the siege does not kill my soldiers with out a fight.This way i can destroy siege equipment and thin them down with archers for one or two turns before they actually commit their siege equipment.I would rather see them attack and commit siege equipment on the first turn.

I can't tell for certain, what is it is possible make. I don't have not enough knowledge in this area. But I think that that is real.

[OSDEA7]

Maybe you should introduce yourself to King Kong of the Third Age Totalwar mod.They have already modified Bow strings and arrows on bows.Maybe they could give you some advice.Third Age: Total War.
As for AI a modder named xeryx does nothing but AI mods for battle and campaign.He may help you in that area.XAI: The game core renovation project.

[OSDEA7]

Making beautiful units is great,but the AI is just as or more important to make a great mod.

Rusichi mod has really beautiful looking units,I would say the best for MTWII mods,but i hate the mods balance and game play.

[Skiph]

OSDEA7

Maybe you should introduce yourself to King Kong of the Third Age Totalwar mod.They have already modified Bow strings and arrows on bows.Maybe they could give you some advice.Third Age: Total War.

I am well familiar with it mods. Also I know its technical features. Certainly not all.
I also took part in a review writing on this of fashions at us on a site:
http://www.internetwars.ru/Medieval-...Third_Age.html
Probably we will contact КК but while we would not have questions with which we have not consulted.

As for AI a modder named xeryx does nothing but AI mods for battle and campaign.He may help you in that area.XAI: The game core renovation project.

Piece of good advice. We will necessarily contact it.

Making beautiful units is great,but the AI is just as or more important to make a great mod.

Rusichi mod has really beautiful looking units,I would say the best for MTWII mods,but i hate the mods balance and game play.

It completely agree.
So I also have written to reviews of this of mod:
http://www.internetwars.ru/Medieval-...i/Rusichi.html
Though from our gallery it is visible the drawing is how much good:
http://www.internetwars.ru/Medieval-...i/Rusichi.html

[OSDEA7]

I'm glad we had this discussion.It has let me know that your plans for this mod will be thorough.So far you seem to be leaning to what i hope would be in a great mod.I'm sure it will be.Guys like you have transformed mediocre games into wonderful worth playing mods.In fact i only play the mods because the core game is so lame.To me this is a form of art.

I hope you do look into the AI work of xeryx.I'm sure as a modder yourself he would be willing to work with you to create a good AI.Many people already are asking him to help make a new AI for the TATW mod at this moment.Like i said earlier he has create XBAI for the battle mode and XCAI for the campaign mode.He has helped with several other mods.I believe he and DARTH VADER has worked together in the past.He is dedicated on making a great AI.

Here is his proposed next version:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

XAI 4.0 is coming soon! It's what Vanilla should be!

Hi guys!! We are back!! We have all assembled for one great push to release our next version of XAI! I am sure that we will never be able to fix all the faults of this darn game, but to look at what we have fixed and improved from the original game! That is something that we are all very proud of.

Because of real life, I had to back away from modding for a number of months, and it was probably one of the best breaks for everyone to benefit from. Sometimes, you can't see all of the problems when you are chest deep in the quagmire of code. During this time Miikll, optimized, tuned and improved the XAI code. I have played his newest version for about 3 weeks and over 100 turns, I have been very challenged and entertained and have continued playing a campaign beyond 100 turns. I hope that when you play 100 turns you feel the same way, and keep saying "just one more turn".

Over the next couple of weeks we will be doing a closed beta with team members only. Looking for better ways to improve and refine more areas of the code. Getting the boulder rolling always takes the most effort!

I realize that the boards are much slower than they have been, and that many people may have moved on to other things. Just get ready! Over the next couple of weeks of testing, I will be getting together screen shots for you. I will see if I can possibly even put together a video...

Obviously we have a test bed platform, and it is the best and most stable mod out there. That mod is KGCM 4.2. Dave my hats off to you sir, for the most stable and bug free mod. I love the script and traits system! They are working so well. Of course different mods will behave differently with XAI.

When we get closer to release, we will post a procedure for installing and running XAI. It is important that the new guideline be followed if you want your games to play like ours do. They are not complicated; it will be just a few important steps. I recommend you guys dust off your Kingdoms DVD's and do a fresh install over the next couple of weeks.

Here is a tidbit, of the things you will have to look forward to in the improved 4.0 version of XAI.

Campaign:
+ Improved the consequences for a players actions
+ Increased diplomatic bartering
+ Smarter and more devious expansion
+ Better handling of naval invasions.
+ Aggressive protection of AI territories and besieging.
+ Improved multiple army attack and defense.
+ Many more epic battles!
+ Sure footed expansion of factions.
+ AI picks invasion targets more carefully.
+ Factions build up much larger armies, for assaulting players.
+ Allies cooperation in attacks for both AI and human.
+ Drastic reduction in steam rolling of opponents.
+ Greatest immersion factor yet!

Battle AI:
+ New code section for AI to properly siege attack the human, just as you would the AI!!!
+ Redesign and optimized sieges, much tougher!
+ Resolved issues with conflicting orders with improved many other tasks.
+ Increased flanking maneuvers and fixed percentages.
+ Updated main missions, with correct parameters to perform much more strategic
+ Redesigned unit and group structures for the edu, for better organization and unit handling.(please see Modding instruction)
+ Streamlined command structures to decrease the size of the file well sort of.
+ MUCH MORE

There will be more info, and screen shots, to come soon.

Final note and disclaimer!!

I hope CA will regain its love and respect for the modding community and embraces them again. XAI would never exist, if it were not for the changes they made in the 1.3 and above patches. Thank you for that CA. We will finally have an AI worthy and challenging.

Your mileage will vary with XAI in different mods; it all depends on the extent the modders are willing to go. We will have a list of things that can help the game immensely. I hope that other modders will take the time to listen to the suggestions, as it can only increase the gamers’ fun factor. We spend tons of time testing the theories and code we try. We have essentially backwards engineered the code we have added to this game, with tons of trial and error. There is no such thing in this project, as made up code, or frivolous gimmicks. We are logically minded, and prove our work to each other, but we are human and do make mistakes

It has been a very long road, and thousands of hours of coding and testing. Our efforts as a team have finally blossomed into a huge step forward in campaign and battle AI advancement. I started this project back in 2007. Soon I realized that this was a huge task to improve the game core. Thorn (Naimad) and I then started rebuilding the cai files, some from scratch. Team members have come and gone, but Argent Usher, Thorn (Naimad) and Miikll have stuck it out and have helped this team in countless ways. I would like to thank, Mad Mardigan for the great video he made for Xai. I would like you all to welcome our newest member of the team Achilla!! I would also like to thank our avid supporters for their contributions..Like Dearmad, and Pnutmaster. Plus the countless number of modders who have helped and given advice to the XAI team. People like Darth Vader, and Cavalry Commander are the ones that inspired this team to push the envelope and make new rules for the AI. Also great thanks to all the modders who have used, and will use XAI and helped up in out tough times.

"Rep this team, when you have earned your victory!"

Click HERE for forums and logo for Downloads!
NEW: XAI 3.4 Video Preview

[Dak'kon]

Well, I hope They will take as much collaborations as they can. Sadly I often see modders who look at their work as a treasure to be kept secret, like modding was som tipe of business competition.

[OSDEA7]

Well, I hope They will take as much collaborations as they can. Sadly I often see modders who look at their work as a treasure to be kept secret, like modding was som tipe of business competition.

They already said they will be looking around for advice and recommendations.It seems they do not have a complete team yet,so i'm sure they will take suggestive help.It is obvious they have unit modding together.From the communication i had so far,they have open minds.
The Rusichi mod team share their work.Look at their beautiful units.Several other mods are adapting their units.
i am sure this will turn out to be an exciting mod.

[Vhaelor]

i am sure this will turn out to be an exciting mod.

You bet! I bet I'm not the only one who'll look down from the mountains of Hithlum and shout onto the hordes of Morgoth

"Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë!"

[Dak'kon]

You bet! I bet I'm not the only one who'll look down from the mountains of Hithlum and shout onto the hordes of Morgoth

"Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë!"

Bet won!
Aure Entuluva!

[OSDEA7]

Skiph,I was visiting your internet wars site and i'm interested in this mod.Is it available?
RUSSIA: TOTAL W AR-II