"First Age: Total War" (Gondolin preview)

[Hrobatos]

this is from Silmarillion

the guy with one hand is Beren, rest are elfs, mostly from Doriath, cant really remember who is who right now...
but elfs you'r making look way too gayish, and thats not the way how Tolkien imagined them, nor it's the way how I see them, I think you'r on the wrong track here

[antkamidiv]

Hrobatos
Very impressive picture! But friend, who did you tell that this picture was drawn in accordance Tolkien's imagination. We did much work with literature for justification of concepts of our units and other. And we never saw that the authorship of this painting belonged to Tolkien. I think, this is only someone creation as well as our mod!

[Vhaelor]

this is from Silmarillion

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

the guy with one hand is Beren, rest are elfs, mostly from Doriath, cant really remember who is who right now...
but elfs you'r making look way too gayish, and thats not the way how Tolkien imagined them, nor it's the way how I see them, I think you'r on the wrong track here

Thingol on the Horse
Huan the Hound assaulting Carcharoth
Beleg Cúthalion with the Bow
Mablung of the Heavy Hand with the spear (my guess)

Though none of them look very elf-like. Especially not Beleg, Mablung nor even Thingol. They all look in fact very human-like.

Hrobatos
Very impressive picture! But friend, who did you tell that this picture was drawn in accordance Tolkien's imagination. We did much work with literature for justification of concepts of our units and other. And we never saw that the authorship of this painting belonged to Tolkien. I think, this is only someone creation as well as our mod!

I spoke about this very thing with PaHer today on MSN while we were working on our skinning/texturing. He asked me if I understood why some people were wondering why we designed orcs the way we did

This is what I told him:

Listen buddy. The Lord of The Rings is a fantasy saga and Tolkien has set some parameters for his story.
He describes orcs in a certain way - but he leaves our imagination to form that picture into whatever we want.
Take the Haradrim for instance. I did not envision them myself as an arabic people, but Peter Jackson did.

We all have our different interpretation of Art, because it affects us all differently. PaHer made most of (if not all) our concept on the orcs - and I personally think it's a very original take on the orcs, especially for this era. Please note also that we have very little reference to work with in comparison to the Third Age art. The Movies did a very good aproximation of the orcs and goblins of the Third Age. But we also know that Tolkien stated that the orcs deteriorated over the ages. Meaning that there was a less corrupted form many thousands of years ago - in the First Age.

The Human race itself has not changed much in the last 7000 years - but in 10-20 000 years a race can change completely, it's enough for evolution to make those small steps that sets living beings apart. And since orcs=/=humans, it's very logical to assume that 7000 years was more than enough for them to deteriorate further into a more corrupted version of orcs.

As I said before, fret not my friends - when we come with our next preview, I am more than certain that it'll be a huge blast

[Hrobatos]

bur you should remember that those are Noldors! not Sindars, Noldors and other Eldars were big as men, and strong, and have prefered sword and spear unlike their Sidnar cousins who were lot physicly weaker, therefore prefering archery...
and those elfs in the preview look very gayish, and that theory of yours about Orcs being more and more corrupted over time...from what have you derived it?
Morgoth made Orcs, I dont think Sauron had any knowledge to make deep changes to them as Morgoth could...Morgoth was the greatest among Valars, I mean the armor you'r making for Orcs...what the hell is that?
and for the Harradrim, Tolkien clearly says that those from Far Harad had black skin, while those from Near Harad had lighter skin, but still darker than people of Gondor.
He also speaks of Easterners and their "yellow" skin. In Sillmarilion...

[Vhaelor]

bur you should remember that those are Noldors! not Sindars, Noldors and other Eldars were big as men, and strong, and have prefered sword and spear unlike their Sidnar cousins who were lot physicly weaker, therefore prefering archery...
and those elfs in the preview look very gayish, and that theory of yours about Orcs being more and more corrupted over time...from what have you derived it?

Morgoth made Orcs, I dont think Sauron had any knowledge to make deep changes to them as Morgoth could...Morgoth was the greatest among Valars, I mean the armor you'r making for Orcs...what the hell is that?
and for the Harradrim, Tolkien clearly says that those from Far Harad had black skin, while those from Near Harad had lighter skin, but still darker than people of Gondor.
He also speaks of Easterners and their "yellow" skin. In Sillmarilion...

Ok, let me try to answer this as best I can

a) I assume you speak of the picture you posted first with Beren and co.
No. They are not Noldor - they are all Sindar apart from Beren who is Edain (if you wish to be picky, then Elwë "Elú" Thingol could be the only one considered a Teleri and not Sindar, because he was the only of that kin of elves who went to Valinor - saw the light of the Trees - and then returned to his kin in Beleriand. He only remained because he stumbled upon Melian wandering the forests in Doriath - and thus he decided to stay.)

b) I believe that leather/some chainmail fits best for orcs personally. If I see orcs in plate I will most likely start thinking Warcraft or Warhammer. But even there the armor of the orcs is rudimentary at best and nowhere near the sophistication of elves, dwarves or even men. We decided to take orcs to this path of leather/mail because we felt it fit them. They didn't have much protection, and their weapons were poorly constructed in comparison to the weapons of the Noldor or Sindar in Beleriand. Morgoth played on their only strength in the War of the Silmarils - their numbers. It is said at the time of the War of Wrath, Morgoth had such forces that he could cover most of Beleriand (correct me if I'm wrong, could be Anfauglith) in sheer numbers. That's hundreds of thousands of orcs, maybe millions.

c) You say our elves look gay? Pardon me but - what would you prefer them to look like? Robocop with pointy ears? Lazers shooting out of the eyes? Elves have - throughout all sci-fi genres ever since Tolkien created the concept of 'High Elves' stuck to the following criterias:
- Love for Nature
- Slender/graceful looks
- Holding great wisdom
- Immortality or very long life
- Excellent combat skills, archery, swordmastership
- Beautiful architecture and their smiths often forge things of beauty, carving runes of power or emblems of wings/unicorns/swans/stars on their shields/swords/armaments
- Increased stamina compared to other mortal races
- Haughty or even arrogant towards the mortal races, but not evil - and doing their duty often defending the mortals from said evil.
- More or less always at odds with the Dwarves, but willing to set aside their differences and fight the common foe when called for.


We are following these criterias. Both in our campaign and in our art. We will not - repeat - will not make this a copy/paste of Third Age: Total War or Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy. This is not just any mod, we are trying to create a piece of art that will last for many years.

It's easy to create a mod mate when you have set parameters (such as Call of Warhammer) where you have a set goal on what you need to create - and then just do it. We have to sketch out a lot of our concept ourselves while still staying true to what we feel is Tolkien-ish.

Please, if you have any suggestions as to what we *could* do to bring out a better gameplay experience - please let us know here and we'll take it under advisement.

At this point in developement, we're heavily still under construction of some factions, where as other factions are already completed or near completion. I cannot promise when the next preview is coming, but I can tell you that when it does come, it'll take you with a force so strong that you'll have problems not wetting your pants.

Trust me. First time I saw the work our team has done on the Gondolin-faction, I had to change underwear.

No.

Really

[Hrobatos]

may I show you another pic?

this is Hobbit, the hobit on the pic is Bilbo...

[antkamidiv]

Hrobatos

that theory of yours about Orcs being more and more corrupted over time...from what have you derived it?

If my memory does not trick me you can find evidence in second lotr book in episode when Saruman was explaining Grima about origin of orcs.

[Hrobatos]

he wrote more about creation of Orcs in Sillmarillion, and is quite unclear
but as alredy said, elves were basis, else was added too

[Hrobatos]

why are so afraid of being copy of TATW? TATW goes by the film, you can go by the book, same as Fourt Age Total War did, and the book never mentiones any plate armors....so they say...

anyway i remember there is one semi-good description for Lordly Elvish armor, the one Turambar found in Nevrast... that could be good information on how did Tolkien imagined them...

It depends about you what will you follow,
1. the book, searching for details;
2. the film
3. or your own imagination on Tolkien's writing...

tha last one may get you heavily criticized by the hardcore fans for inaccuracy...

[Vhaelor]

why are so afraid of being copy of TATW? TATW goes by the film, you can go by the book, same as Fourt Age Total War did, and the book never mentiones any plate armors....so they say...

anyway i remember there is one semi-good description for Lordly Elvish armor, the one Turambar found in Nevrast... that could be good information on how did Tolkien imagined them...

It depends about you what will you follow,
1. the book, searching for details;
2. the film
3. or your own imagination on Tolkien's writing...

tha last one may get you heavily criticized by the hardcore fans for inaccuracy...

Right, I think I see where you come from -

The reason we don't want to do anything like TATW is for a few simple reasons:

1) We would have to ask permission of KingKong, which could be at any one time withdrawn, in which case we'd have to remove all of his content because it's his intellectual property. Plus that it would give us incredibly bad publicity if we just ignored him and took things from his mod.

2) People would actually think we've done a poor job on the evil factions. Most people would shout "omg, ripoff!" and call this mod a sack of wet noodles - we have no desire to open that can of worms.

3) As for the last one - this is what we're going for. So far the comments we've recieved on the orcs has been fairly positive, and most people enjoy a fresh take on what orcs looked like in Arda - especially since we have so little to go on for the First Age.

And those who are hardcore...well...if they find our mod to be a bad pool of lorebreaking content - they can always create a submod. That's what happening to TATW with Aikanár's Lore-submod.

[Beorn]

I side with Aruthiel here; The units of the Goldolithrim are just as the lore describes them.
The image of the Hunt of Carcaroth u posted looks more to Warhammer than Tolkien.

Here are the most well know images of Tuor in Vinyamar

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And here's the part of the Unfinished Tales that describe the armor he found in Mount Taras' palace

then Tuor, full in awe, saw on the wall behind the throne a hung shield and a long chainmail shirt, a helmet and a longsword in its sheath. The mail shirt was shining like it was made by silver and the radius of the sun were glittering it with goldensheens. The shield, though, had a strange shape in Tuor's eyes: it was long, narrowing in the bottom part, It's background was green and in the middle was painted the emblem of a swans' wing

[Aikanár]

Have I lately said, that I'm really looking forward to this mod and am more then just eager to actually play a mod since, uhm, a long time?
Till now I find it highly appealing

[Hrobatos]

checked the units better, and I changed my mind, they dont look gayish, even do some later, look somewhat weird, but some of 2D art looks gayish do...

[Vhaelor]

Ho there friends,

I've taken the position also in our mod team as the public relations officer, meaning that I'll be keeping primarily in touch with the community here on the Total War Center. If you have any questions, please throw 'em at me and I'll do my best to give you a satisfying reply.

As for the work on this mod:
We are proceeding at an acceptable pace and moving fairly quickly towards new models and textures that we're making sure are working properly and look good in-game. At this moment we are also working on a new preview that we will post soon.

Yes,
soon is somewhere between now and eternity

//Aru

[Aikanár]

Ho there friends,

I've taken the position also in our mod team as the public relations officer, meaning that I'll be keeping primarily in touch with the community here on the Total War Center. If you have any questions, please throw 'em at me and I'll do my best to give you a satisfying reply.

As for the work on this mod:
We are proceeding at an acceptable pace and moving fairly quickly towards new models and textures that we're making sure are working properly and look good in-game. At this moment we are also working on a new preview that we will post soon.

Yes,
soon is somewhere between now and eternity

//Aru

Very nice to hear that, if you ever venture for Quenya and or Sindarin sound files, take a look at my Sig and let me know

It annoys me that people think that the elves you have thus far modeled look "gayish". Simply because a humanoid male figure is slendor with refined features and graceful does not make them 'gayish. In regards to orcish armor, it can be assumed that they possessed armor of some quality under the rule of Morgoth, after all the forges and smithies of angband were manned by Noldor and Sindar slaves.

Agreed!

I do have to say on the subject of orcish apparence that it is unlikely that there is a great deal of difference between the orcs that served Morgoth and the orcs that Served Sauron. While Sauron certainly would have attempted to make improvements on orcs, particularly in regards to their ability to tolerate sunlight, there really isnt any evidnece to suggest that the general appearance of orcs had changed much.

You do realise, that even though the basic idea of Orks was designed by Melkor outside Eä while the music was played or even (which is remarkable) before that, it was Sauron, not Melkor/Morgoth, who created and bread the first Orks in the first palce?! (HoM-E, volume X, Morgoth's Ring, Myths Tranformed)

The orcs under Sauron could be expected to have possesed armor and weapons of inferiros quality than the orcs of Morgoth due to the fact that saurons orcs were making their own gear, or using Human made gear, as opposed to being equipped with gear made by elvish smiths.

Armor != evoloution isn't it?!

On the topic of elves, there is not indication that the Sindar were any different from the Noldor in physical Stature.

Of course there is! Sindar != Eldar in physical or mental form or shape! They can only compare to Eldar in teached lore by Melian.

Elves in general were on average taller than a man, and while not appearing as broad, they nonetheless posses physical strength at least equal too, and in most cases, exceeding that of men with a few extraordinary exceptions of course.

Uhm, not really, i.e. only in the first Age.

The true power of the Noldor, what made them so much more deadly in melee combat than their Sindarin cousins, and in fact, pretty much everything else, is a power that is never very defined. It is a personal power and authority that appears to have been derived from dwelling in Aman in the light of the trees.

Partially granted.

It is this power that makes the strongest of the Noldor a threat to beings as lethal as Balrogs,

Uhm no! Feanor is defeated by Balrogs, Fingon is as well. Glorfindel is the only Noldor who is reported to have slain a Balrog. Gothmog is slain by Echtelion, who is a Sindar Noble, not a Noldor.

and in LOTR it is that power that gives elves like Glorfindel the strenght to stand against the nine.

Totally wrong!
Glorfindel is the only Elf in the Second or Third Age who is able to stand up against one of more or all of the Nine, and that is not due to him being a Noldor or Eldar, but due to him being re-incarnated and being send back as the first Istar to Middle-earth!

It is that undefined power that results in the wrath of the Noldor being fierce enough for them to cut orcs down like wheat before a scythe.

Uhm, no.

It is said in the Silmarillion that against the hosts of the Noldor, no number of orcs would be sufficient. It took the dragons, balrogs, and treachery to defeat the might of the Noldor.

Yep, but not due anything you posted above.

Finally, in regards to the picture of Beren and co. fighting the great wolf, that picture is definitely not in line with Tolkiens view of elves. I think it is safe to assume that Christopher tolkien knows more of his fathers mind than anyone else, and the pictures selected by him for the newer publications of the Silmarillion have little in common with the one above. That image is the fruit of the artists own interpretation.

Granted

Not really!

[UmbraPhoenix]

Perhaps you have not read the Fall of Gondolin, where Rog and the Elves of the Hammer of wrath slay many balrogs, enough to cause the host of mordor to tremble. Tuor in fact slays a few balrogs during the final retreat to the fountain of the king, and finally, Ecthelion(who it can not be definitively said weather he is noldorin or Sindarin, as Gondolin had both, but as no other Sindar slew Balrogs it is more likely to assume he is Noldor.) personally slays and is slain by Gothmog. It is stated that there are a few others who can stand against the nine in Rivendel, and the fact that Galadhriel through her own power and the power granted by Nenya is able to defend her land from Saurons gaze indicates that she would likely possess sufficient power to do so. While Glorfindel (and he is not one of the Istari. There are five wizards, and they are all of the Maia spirit race, like sauron, but their power is veiled. They are Rhadagast, Sauruman, Gandalf, and two unnammed wizards who were said to where blue and who traveled far into the east.) is the only elf who is reincarnated and sent back, he is not the only elf to be reincarnated. The spirits of all elves go to the halls of Mandos, because they are bound to the earth, that is the source of their immortality. If an elf has been particularly valiant, then Mandos can release their spirit early to return, and when he does the spirit is given form again. There is absolutley no reason to think that this is the source of Glorfindels power over the Nine. On the Calaquendi and the Moriquendi, the elves who went to Aman did not get a growth spurt. The sindar and the Noldor have many differences, but not in stature. Elves were all created by Illuvatar, and one of the most prominant traits of the elves is that they are slow to change, if they change at all. Simply because the Sindar and the green elves and the rest of the Moriquendi stayted behind, that is not sufficient reason, given how tolkien portays elves, to assume that they are different in stature. They are certainly different in custom, culture, and technology, but not in stature. As to the power of the Noldor, it is what makes them so deadly. The Sindar, who did not see the light of the trees, were fine enough warriors in their own right, but they could not wage war with the ferocity of the Noldor. Certainly the fact that the Noldor were equipped with weapons and armor more suited to melee combat, but that alone is not good enough to explain how the Noldor were able to butcher orcs in the tens of thousands. Another proof of the might of the Lords of the Noldor lays in fingolfins duel with Morgoth. Fingolfin was able to wound Morgoth with seven wounds, that pain him always, and to give him a limp. Undoubtedly Ringil was forged in Valinor as well, but the sword cant get all the credit. Fingolfin was at the height of his wrath, and it filled him with power. As to feanors death, he was set upon by a COMPANY of Balrogs, including Gothmog. While I said the Noldor have power, i did not say that it made them invincible, i simply said it made them a THREAT to balrogs. That does not mean that they could easily kill balrogs, but they COULD manage it, though they often perished as well . Finally, the Sindar were "Eldar". the Eldar comprise all of the elves who crossed the Ered Lindon. The only elves who are not counted amoung the Eldar are the elves of Mirkwood and Lorien. That is taken directly from the appendix f in lotr.

[paradamed]

another preview is welcome.

[UmbraPhoenix]

It annoys me that people think that the elves you have thus far modeled look "gayish". Simply because a humanoid male figure is slendor with refined features and graceful does not make them 'gayish. In regards to orcish armor, it can be assumed that they possessed armor of some quality under the rule of Morgoth, after all the forges and smithies of angband were manned by Noldor and Sindar slaves. I do have to say on the subject of orcish apparence that it is unlikely that there is a great deal of difference between the orcs that served Morgoth and the orcs that Served Sauron. While Sauron certainly would have attempted to make improvements on orcs, particularly in regards to their ability to tolerate sunlight, there really isnt any evidnece to suggest that the general appearance of orcs had changed much. The orcs under Sauron could be expected to have possesed armor and weapons of inferiros quality than the orcs of Morgoth due to the fact that saurons orcs were making their own gear, or using Human made gear, as opposed to being equipped with gear made by elvish smiths. On the topic of elves, there is not indication that the Sindar were any different from the Noldor in physical Stature. Elves in general were on average taller than a man, and while not appearing as broad, they nonetheless posses physical strength at least equal too, and in most cases, exceeding that of men with a few extraordinary exceptions of course. The true power of the Noldor, what made them so much more deadly in melee combat than their Sindarin cousins, and in fact, pretty much everything else, is a power that is never very defined. It is a personal power and authority that appears to have been derived from dwelling in Aman in the light of the trees. It is this power that makes the strongest of the Noldor a threat to beings as lethal as Balrogs, and in LOTR it is that power that gives elves like Glorfindel the strenght to stand against the nine. It is that undefined power that results in the wrath of the Noldor being fierce enough for them to cut orcs down like wheat before a scythe. It is said in the Silmarillion that against the hosts of the Noldor, no number of orcs would be sufficient. It took the dragons, balrogs, and treachery to defeat the might of the Noldor. Finally, in regards to the picture of Beren and co. fighting the great wolf, that picture is definitely not in line with Tolkiens view of elves. I think it is safe to assume that Christopher tolkien knows more of his fathers mind than anyone else, and the pictures selected by him for the newer publications of the Silmarillion have little in common with the one above. That image is the fruit of the artists own interpretation.

[Vhaelor]

It annoys me that people think that the elves you have thus far modeled look "gayish".

Every sort of game and franchise that has elves in some manner suffers from this I'm afraid - just look at World of Warcraft. Despite the fact that the Blood elves probably have the best animations and the best looks - especially when wearing plate items, the males are ridiculed for being homosexuals.

Interestingly it's mostly alliance mocking them - and then those same people go to the barbershop in Stormwind and get a haircut. And they take a blood elf male's haircut. Oh the hipocrisy...

From the entire team:
We'd all like to thank you for your continued support - know that we do this for you guys, and for the love of the franchise that the great J.R.R Tolkien created. We hope you'll stay with us as we release the next preview soon™.

[toluas]