Pope and his Cease Fire nonsense (English Early Campaign)

[Wismer]

I am playing as the English on VH/VH (RC/RR not activated) in the Early Campaign and have failed several times to establish myself firmly on the british isles. I've tried attacking the Scottish early, but every time I am about to take a settlement, the pope asks that I cease hostilities or risk becoming excommunicated. Now, I know that the word "risk" doesn't necessarily mean "will" but every time I decided to ignore his edict, I am banished - EVEN when I am greasing his dirty paws with 1000 florin tributes per turn, outstanding relationship etc. etc.

Every time this happens, my efforts to eliminate the scottish/irish threat is brought to an abrupt halt. The army upkeep eats into my profit, im then unable to properly upgrade my settlements, and then suddenly in some combination or another outnumbered, out maneuvered and outspent by the french/irish/scottish.

Should I just take that risk of being excommunicated? Am I doing something wrong in my early steps? I take York on turn 2, the Welsh Rebel town on turn 5-6, build up infrastructure until I get longbowmen and then advance onto either Rennes, Dublin, or Edinburgh. Am I stretching myself out too much?

The best save I got so far is that I was able to take Dublin despite the risk of excommunication.

Any advice would be appreciated. I really enjoy 6.2 in VH/VH and intend to keep trying until I succeed.

[meese]

I'm playing with the latest RR/RC compilation as the English in the Early campaign and I started with York, Exeter, Winchester, London, Nottingham and Caen. The Irish aren't in my campaign.

Basically I started by taking Caernarvon as quickly as possible and then going straight for the Scots. That was definitely within the first 10 turns. After about two large battles with them on the borders the pope sent a warning. I figured that I'd have to take the scots out early to make sure Wallace didn't come (the triggers start after 70 turns) so I didn't heed the pope. You probably could just wait and build up a second army then sail across and take two settlements on the same turn, but I've never been fond of naval invasions because they cost a lot and one rebel (or even norse) navy can ruin your day.

The trick with England, I think, is to focus entirely on either the Scots or Irish. Caen should be able to hold out on its own and if the French dont' attack you for a bit, you could even venture out to Rennes but I wouldn't ship troops from England to France. I'd do that only if Caen is about to fall (or has fallen) or you've taken over the British Isles. That happened around turn 34 for me. If you've got longbowmen it could potentially be even faster depending on whether or not you stay with the pope.

[sbroadbent]

Several things to try:

Put spies and/or catapults into your recruiting strategy. By the time the Pope threatens excom, you'll have already captured your target. Fortify your holdings and wait out the timer. Optionally, once you've gone after the Scots and have been warned, go after the Irish, and then switch back to the Scots. Rinse, repeat until you own the Isles.

Entice the Scots or Irish to go on the offensive. Leave a frontier settlement lightly defended, but with a reasonable reinforcement army nearby. Spank the Scots/Irish back to their lands and then reset the bait. After a few such attempts by the Scots/Irish, they might be threatened with excom themselves and then get themselves excomm'd, which gives you the green light to lay waste to the Scots/Irish. Brown nose the Pope to keep your relations up, and to make it more likely that the Pope will favor you.

In a 6.1 Norway game, I blitz'd the Danes by taking Arhus by Turn 4 or 5. The following turn I attacked another Danish army in Arhus or Hamburg region, and the turn after I was threatened with Excom. That lasted for about a turn before the Danes blockaded Arhus's port and got themselves excomm'd. Followed up with an attack on Roskilde and then Lund

[Enomine]

The above tips are good ones. When I played England (with SS6.2 and RR/RC compilation, so no Irish) what I did was: make an early marriage alliance with France and then concentrate entirely on the Scots. Sending a small force on a boat to take Inverness early on ensured that they had no hope of building up any real resistance. Without proper military units from a castle, and lacking any support from France, they were basically at my mercy. Once Inverness was mine, I just respected any warnings the pope sent me, killed anything Scottish that entered my lands, and then took out the remaining cities when Scotland got excommmed. I think they had been wholly eliminated by around turn 20. This relies mostly on keeping only 1 front open though, so it may not work as well for you since you have the Irish to contend with.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

I've tried attacking the Scottish early, but every time I am about to take a settlement, the pope asks that I cease hostilities or risk becoming excommunicated. Now, I know that the word "risk" doesn't necessarily mean "will" but every time I decided to ignore his edict, I am banished - EVEN when I am greasing his dirty paws with 1000 florin tributes per turn, outstanding relationship etc. etc.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Aw that's bullocks, absolute rubbish mate.... At At 1,000 gold sovereigns a turn the max you should get is a warning for lesser repute. Oh well...If running the Scots thru to establish sovereignty is your plan to the Devil with that misinformed, holier that thou than malcontent in Rome. Take the excommunication for the lifetime of your Monarch and proceed as planned...The order hit should only be 10%-20%. Just reduce taxes and you'll be fine. Keep an eye on your settlement growth rates though.

...almost forgot.Wismer, welcome to the TWC Forums...

[cedric37]

You are playing England, you don't really fear a crusade, as english settlements are not normally crusade-able (well depends of the sub-mod you are playing), plus armies rarely take into a boat when crusading...

Also let a diplomat near Rome, so that you can pay for reconciliation just after you captured all settlements you wished to capture.

[Wismer]

Wow, never thought of that. How much would it cost you think to bribe your way out of an excommunication? Or would it just be better to go suicidal with the monarch (that would be a little on a cheating side, though).

Thanks for all the bits of advice.

Do you bother switching Caen to a town in the beginning?

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Do you bother switching Caen to a town in the beginning?

Naaaa, switch the one in Wales first. Two in Britain is enough. Unless your awash with cash and want to have Caen besieged as a town.

[cedric37]

The cost generally is around 30K gold or one settlement given to the pope, whatever you prefer. If you have the money, pay him. Else, try to quickly capture a settlement you don't really need and give it to him. It is better if this settlement is about to fall under ennemy's hordes, as you can regain it later plus this will put your ennemy at war with the pope...
Once you get reconciliated, i strongly suggest you to ally the pope and throw him money whenever your rep with him is below perfect. Doing this, you are rarely if ever in the threat of being exco.

For Caen, well it depends if you want a stronghold on the continent or if you don't care and go for money in the long term.
Generally i let Caen as a castle as it is a good settlement able to reach citadel level quite easily.

[JorisofHolland]

Turn all of Britain into cities, except Nothingham and Galway, they are too developed.

[Rolling Thunder]

Mass up, crush one faction, then use veterans to crush other, then send veterans to France. Disregard the Pope, or at least wait until he's about to die....horribly.

[oofandango]

Just a wee tip for England's start (I use rr/rc so no Ireland)
Ignore the Scottish for now, concentrate on taking out all the rebels in Ireland and England first. The scots will ofc declare war, but just send a diplomat for cease fire. Get a good friend asap, Aragon is a nice one, Norway is handy...stops them constantly sending ships over, just to land troops that sit there and do nothing, or hid in the woods near york
The pope's constant cease fire orders are a pain in the ass while your trying to get rid of Scotland. So rarther than do the slog up hill from York its better to just get 3 city buster squads together. Somthing like 2 catapults 1 unit of horses, 3 spear men 3 archers. If you have the cash then a spy and assassin for each squad is a nice bonus.
Send off each squad in a ship outside each city to be ready to attack. Take all 3 citys in one turn, Scotland destroyed, woopie no bothering pope. There will be plenty of Scotish armies and generals around that turned rebel for you to play with tho.
JorisofHolland's tip is a very good one, personaly I even turn galway into a city asap. Caen is nice for a seconadary castle. Or, if at war with Norway, I find Olso is better for second castle early on, and turn Caen into a city also.
just me tunpenthworth

[Wismer]

what exactly does having a spy/assassin in an army do for it other than deterring enemy spies/assassins?

[oofandango]

Land your armie outside the city/castle and then send in the spy, gives you a chance to have the gates opened for you. Also if there is a general inside the assassins chance of killing him increases slightly...I think. (Somtimes they leave only a general unit inside, in which case kill him and you get the city free)
You'd prolly need to train your spys/assassins a little before doing this tho, hence I say "if you can aford it" cos your gona have 3 of each for a few years.

***Ive read on the hints thread that having a spy in your army enables you to see all the enemy units in a field battle, not sure if this is the case for all mods tho***

[Callawyn]

***Ive read on the hints thread that having a spy in your army enables you to see all the enemy units in a field battle, not sure if this is the case for all mods tho***

This is a myth, it doesn't work. First time I saw it I thought it was really cool and immediately tried it, very disappointing.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

what exactly does having a spy/assassin in an army do for it other than deterring enemy spies/assassins?

For me....Vision. If I have funds I always cover my generals with spies. You'd be amazed what comes into view when I spy travels with your stack. {don't forget to level him up, when you can}

[JorisofHolland]

If you engage in a battle, but haven't decided yet to auto-resolve or fight (like a Medieval King) you can see all the units in all armies that join the battle by clicking on the General's portrait (you can also see his traits). Spies don't affect this at all, nor anything else concerning armies (except spionange/assassination actions against that army, of course)

[Callawyn]

Note what the ceasefire 'Mission' actually says, there are 2 types: 1 says you'll lose reputation with the Pope, the other says he will excommunicate you. When you actually attack your enemy or assault his cities, you'll get the same warning message either way saying you'll get excommunicated if you attack. If the Mission said loss of rep, you will NOT get excommunicated when you attack. You don't even lose much favor with the Pope. Also, regardless of which mission you've gotten, you can still play defense with no penalty: any enemy armies in regions that you own are fair game and will not cause a mission failure.

The Pope tends to issue this mission only AFTER you've captured a city/castle, so you can beat on their armies all you like, but once you've captured a region expect to get this ceasefire mission.

As noted above: build catapults/trebuchet asap. If you need to build siege works first, best way is to get a crusade started and join it, dropping your upkeep costs dramatically. Nothing like putting your main field armies on Crusade to jumpstart your building efforts and clear your build queue.

For Catholic vs Catholic wars, 1) Beat on any faction that is excommunicated. If you hover your mouse over the reputation bars for each faction on the Pope panel (aka the Pope-o-meter), it'll tell you who is currently excommunicated (you also get notified at the start of each turn whenever a faction gets excom or reconciles). Pope will never demand ceasefire if the faction you are beating on is excom. Be careful not to kill a faction leader of an excom faction, as this results in reconcilition of that faction with the Pope. 2) Take a few extra turns to prepare and backstab your target in a big way: have catapults/trebuchet in each army attacking so that you can siege and assault on the same turn, have a diplo standing by in a region you aren't planning on capturing, take 2-4 provinces on the same turn and immediately offer ceasefire (using fleets to transport armies helps, and can allow multiple sieges per attacking army). The Pope may still demand a ceasefire from you, but it will be meaningless since you've already ended the war.

If you screw up and get a mission from the Pope demanding ceasefire and threatening excom, you have 3 choices 1) Send a diplomat to end the war. 2) Ignore the warning, kill your enemy and deal with being excommunicated (expect multiple DOW's from Catholic factions, note that you can suicide your faction leader to end the excom) 3) Play defense until the mission expires. IMO, option 3 is a big loser, avoid it at all costs. You're paying upkeep for armies that aren't helping you expand your empire, much better to get peace and attack somewhere else, you can come back later to finish off the faction the Pope is protecting.

[Saint_of_Battle]

I myself im a defensive player. If played England, I would either turtle with a Wales-Nottingham defensive line, or blitz them by taking no less than 2 of their settlements (Edin., Aberdeen), sack them, you get a whale of cash and get new armies, prolly merc and proceed to mop up. If you choose to blitz, do everything short and sweet, dont take too long or they will show up with a stack and half a turn or two later. This is all possible, because the Scots leave all their cities undefended and patrol the highlands. Use everything at disposal for blitzing, just in case everything goes badly.

If you turtle, you take your time to build up, but also they take their time to build up. Anyway, let the Scots come to you, the pope will take your side, and you just slowly push them back...

Thats what I would do.. (6.2, No Ireland)

[zchmrkenhoff]

Religion has no place in the running of a kingdom... or so my faction leader's trait says