Naval Battles Too Tough - Anyone Play Them?

[Draetor24]

No matter how many of the Naval Battle strategy guides I read on this forum, I always lose these battles. Even if I have a huge fleet of 4th rates vs trade fleets.

What I have been doing is grouping my ships into Line Astern formation, and moving alongside the enemy, going in the direction of the wind. Sometimes I move my line right between theirs, to cut them off, and then head into the wind with my sides facing them for firing canons.

The problem is, my canons never scratch their hull, meanwhile, my 4th rates are getting destroyed and start routing/sinking extremely fast.

I'm at the point of auto-resolving every naval battle, because even if the indicator shows me in favor, if I play the battle, I will lose.

There has to be a better strategy than what I've read up on in the stickies.

[OldCrowWhiskey]

I found the naval battles hard at first but how I improved was by re-loading and retrying battles that I failed. Playing the same battle several different ways is the best way to get the feel for the dynamics. There's no one way. If the "trade ships" you're fighting against are galleons, you have your work cut out for you. Galleons are very well armed and are really more like warships (4th rate ish) that happen to be able to trade to cover upkeep costs.

How to kill them: In my experience, firing against the bow of a ship is not terribly effective. You want to go broadside to broadside -or- your broadside to the enemy's stern. If at all possible, the object is to cause confusion in the enemy's line and break the enemy ships into smaller, more manageable groups where they will more easily be destroyed. Get used to the idea of losing ships. Encircle enemies whenever possible and use the full broadside feature to break morale. Pay attention to match ups and don't put your 5th rate against say a 3rd rate without lots of backup and a quick downwind getaway plan.

How to manage your fleet: Try not to lead with your admiral flagship. If you have a large fleet you'll want to break them into groups of 2 to 6 based on speed, usually sending in the largest and best armored ships first followed closely by the next largest ships. The first volleys on the first several ships should be full broadside, the other volleys you can let the computer do. Intervene and do a manual volley if you want to break enemy morale as you get a sort of charge bonus (extra morale reduction for anyone shot in the stern). Always use ball shot until you definitely have the upper hand in the battle. If you're chasing down a fast ship you can use chain. Also if you're using two parallel ship lines against one enemy line, your furthest line should be shooting chain so you dont sink a friendly. If you're about to board and the enemy's hull is half strength or lower, do the grapeshot before you board. Move badly damaged ships out of the battle! Moving them out of the heat of the battle will be better for morale than losing that ship... also if it's a real slug fest those damaged ships may be the best ships you have near the end of the fight! Take care of the Admiral and pay attention to the wind & how the AI is managing it.

Special task groups: Depending on the fleet composition, I will make a fleet grouping that has a special task. If I have some carronade frigates in a battle with mostly ships of the line, I will put them in a group (group 3 or 4, the 3rd or 4th line to see battle) with a 5th rate leading the charge to absorb damage. The purpose of that group is to come in quick and break enemy morale in a few key ship duels as the carronades are great for that breaking morale and they're pretty quick too. Or you can group a couple of bomb ketches with some galleys for a potent front firing artillery station, or simply a group of galleys to charge into the wind to take out or capture damaged large vessels. You almost always want a group of sloops or brigs (possibly set on chain shot) to come flying in near the end to surrender fleeing enemies or break a persistent opponent or to protect a vital asset like a flagship or 2nd rate or something. The right task group in the right battle can make all the difference.

I really like the naval battles but a big one can be pretty time consuming. Here's a more obvious tip - try to avoid a fair fight! The superior force almost always wins, AI or not, and even if you're a victorious underdog you will usually come away with around 50% casualties or worse.

[netjam99]

Old Crow gave some solid advise. I too at first had nothing but disaster strike during naval battles, but over time got better to where now I generally win unless severely outnumbered. That special command 'FULL BROADSIDE' is crucial. My first salvo from each ship uses that. Really pounds the enemy. I mainly do a line astern also, but the broadside makes the difference as each of my ships passes the enemy. Also as you win a few battles your ships will gain experience points, before you know it you'll have an elite force!

[NJGOAT]

Very solid advice given above and a great post.

Two things to keep in mind:

1. You were talking about 4th Rates vs. trade fleets. If they are Indiamen, you shouldn't have an issue, even Fluyts should go down easily to 4th Rates. However, if they are galleons then you can expect a pretty even fight. Galleon fleets are very hard to take down without using de-masting tactics with frigates or having at least 3rd Rates.

2. I used to just put all of my ships in the line astearn formation and head out to fight. This works, but becomes really ineffective when you have more than 5 or 6 ships in the line. I now break my ships down into more manageable groups and this allows me to make the most out of all my ships. It is extremely critical if you have a mixed fleet of frigates and SOL's as each class of ship has a different role in the battle.

[Daneboy]

The sea battles are way harder than the land battles. But also more enjoyable IMO.

To win, you need to bring the more powerful ships to the table. Quality over quantity, and after 1.5 rocket ships are quite effective but rather expensive.

I always play them, even if beeing severly outgunned and outnumbered, but only if I can´t run away.

[LiquidSnakeRNA]

I got a question for you guys...I do simulate almost all of my battles (land and naval) because I am more into the big picture strategy of the game. I like campaigns to not last more than a week

My question is, what is the ideal naval configuration? Should I have a variation of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rates? Or would it be better to make as many heavy first rates that I can make. I have plenty of money to make the best ships, but it seems like sometimes my admiral and 4-5 heavy first rates loses to a inferior navy with around 10-15 ships of 6th rates and brigs etc...

[Draetor24]

Ya, the battle I lost to had a ton of Spanish Galleons. All I saw at first were the coins, so I assumed they were weak trade ships.

So far, even after using thes trategies posted here and other threads, I can only win a naval battle if I outnumber and outclass the enemy. In fact, in just a recent battle I had yesterday, I had about 8-10 Brigs/Sloops vs a 5th rate admiral and 2 brigs. I killed the enemy brigs quickly, but that 5th rate ship "almost" killed every single one of my ships. I won with "1" ship left, making the 5thr ate finally route after wavering for so long.

I had my ships in line astern and circling the single ship. It was nuts. If that was my single 5th rate ship, it would route immediately. That's the issue I have. My ships sink/route/surrender way faster than the enemy.

[OldCrowWhiskey]

I killed the enemy brigs quickly, but that 5th rate ship "almost" killed every single one of my ships. I won with "1" ship left, making the 5thr ate finally route after wavering for so long.

5th rate is the strongest frigate, so it should take several brigs/sloops to take it down (a brig is a better warship than a sloop. I don't bother with sloops unless captured).

Regardless, I believe brigs and sloops get a bonus to their chainshot damage. I think this was done by the programmers to make these ships more relevant in the late game.

I had my ships in line astern and circling the single ship. It was nuts.

Since you greatly outnumbered the enemy I would have liked to see you switch the whole fleet to chain shot at this point to de-mast the frigate, then choose your strongest brig and board the sucker. A strategy like that would likely produce a quicker victory and you get the bonus of capturing the enemy ship. Most of the time a de-masted ship will give up straight away as the crew is now stranded in the middle of the ocean with no hope of rescue.

Also as your ships were getting damaged by the frigate you should have been manually routing them (throw up the white flag) or simply ordering that they retreat from the line of fire in order to preserve your numbers. You can cycle them back in later, hopefully using your strong side that time.

[Draetor24]

I've been using chain shot a lot at the beginning of battles to try and demast their lead ship fast. It seems de-masting effects their morale a lot, and I've found naval battles all depends on morale. Anyway, I'm playing as Maratha and have huge fleets of stacked 2nd/3rd ships of the line, and decimating everyone now. How do you make Galleons? They are really strong for trade ships.

[OldCrowWhiskey]

I've been using chain shot a lot at the beginning of battles to try and demast their lead ship fast.

This is risky unless you greatly outnumber the enemy fleet. This strategy will not work in a fair fight.

How do you make Galleons? They are really strong for trade ships.

Go to the caribbean and start capturing pirate ships. In the mid-late game they will field almost a full stack of galleons. Spain & the pirates are the only factions that can build galleons. United Provinces and pirates are the only factions that can produce fluyts (another trade ship almost as good as a galleon).

[xcorps]

IMO, the naval battles alone are worth the price of the game.

They were difficult and frustrating to begin with, but last night I had a grand old admiral on his 5th rate blocking the entrance to the North Sea from the Swedes as a screen for the invasion force coming next turn from London. Sweden attacked him with 4 sloops, 4 brigs (one as a reinforcement), and a 5th rate. He didn't fire a single round of ball until 3 of the brigs were dead in the water. Then he started pounding the sloops, and finally demasted the 5th rate. I was afraid the reinforcement brig was going to ruin it all, but 2 good salvos put an end to that. I was left with 12 troops on that ship, but captured them all. Unfortunatley, Admiral Locke died of old age on his way to London to resupply and refit. Sweden never recovered from that battle, and became a note in the pages of history two years later.

Don't start the battle up close to the enemy. Look at the wind gage, and put your forces upwind of the middle as far back as possible. This creates a very long span of time from the start of the battle until the shooting starts, but it's worth it, because everything you do after that first shot happens because of the first shot. Had a good approach and demasted the lead ship? That brings the enemy formation to a stop, and gives you complete freedom to turn the formation, even upwind, perhaps tightly enough to group 3 or 4 of your lead ships firing arcs on the 3rd or 4th ship in his line, removing that one from the fight as well, and yet still leaving you room to manuever without having to worry about concentrated fire on your last ship.

Have a bad approach, and you didn't get much inflicted? Your likely going to have a long fight of hopeful turns.

The most important thing in this naval combat isn't shooting, it's manuevering in general and turning in particular. The arc of the turn and the speed of the turn are so critical in placing your shots. It's turning that lets you concentrate fire from several ships without reprisal. Take away the enemy ability to turn as well as you do and you'll fare much better than simply hoping that your broadsides are better than his broadsides.

Keep the pressure on routing ships, unless they have managed to get about 6 ship lengths upwind, and you aren't already at best upwind sailing speed. If the the battle is looking good, break off you fastest ship from the formation to deal with him. Nothing like an unexpected blast from an oppenent who decided he's not really done yet.

It's better to make the enemy turn upwind, even if you have to make two downwind turns without shooting to get him sailing in your favor. That's how you beat a galleon with a sloop. Make him chase you where you want to go, not letting him chase you where he wants you to go.

Keep an eye on the morale messages. They tell you how to beat that particular ship. Concerned by casualties? Make a grape shot run on him. Concerned by hull damage? A good stern blast might route him.

Hope that helps!

Oh, and don't be afraid to bring your formation to a complete stop if you have the T and are upwind. It's a bit of fun to watch the enemy ships flounder around while you wait for the next firing cycle to complete. When he telegraphs his next turn, it's time to take advantage by picking up some speed in a wide downwind turn and come around the back of the formation. Very often I find that this manuever will cause his ships to totally lose their stationkeeping, bunching up, all with no wind and after your good pass, with no masts.

Oh again. I'm finding that the battle indicator is less telling that the composition. If I can outmanuever the opposing fleet even't if I don't outgun them , I'm winning. The fleets I have the most trouble with have a good mixure of frigates and brigs with 1 heavy hitter. I like to build my fleets with a 5th admiral supported by a 6th, and either 4 sloops or 2 brigs. I like to make line astern with the 5th 6th and a brig or 2 sloops, but I usually break off the 2 sloops on the first run. If it's the brig, I usually keep the formation on stations. I use the other brig/sloops as either a distraction, just brushing his line from time to time at max range, or as an effort ship making determined runs on the last ships quarters.

[Draetor24]

So it's best to stick to round shot for fair fights? Chain-shot only if you outnumber?

[xcorps]

I have to put up a vote for opening with chain shot. In the last 50 or so naval battles, I haven't fired round ball until the latter part of a battle. In the last battle I played, I had less than even odds against a French fleet with the French having a 1 ship advanatge (5th over my 6th) in an 8 ship fleet. I led with chain, using alt-left click to keep fire on his lead frig until it demasted, then halted my formations (had 1 ahead of him and 1 astern, 4 ships each). His lead frigate and aft frigate foundered, cause they were sailing upwind. This made his entire single line bunch up, and stay bunched up, because I just kept demasting his ships. At the end of the fight, I had 1 ship with minor damage, the AI got off maybe 10 salvos total.

I did however, have nice results with 5th class vs galleons using an alternating ship loadout. I led the fight with chain from all, then switched every other ship to round. This shortened the fight a bit, but sadly I sank one of the galleons.

[Draetor24]

I've noticed that auto-calc'ing results are really bad. I just auto-calc'd a navy with admiral + 6 4th rates vs 1 pirate Brig, and I lost a 4th rate plus a lot of guns got destroyed on the rest of my ships! I re-played it myself and didn't lose a thing.

Was this intended so we play all naval battles?

[NJGOAT]

I've noticed as well that auto-calc can give some really wierd results in naval battles. I generally always play them even if I know that a win is pretty much a given.

The alt-left click thing is very important in naval battles. Once I figured out how that worked it made that battles a lot easier. No longer was I just hoping that my ships would fire on the enemy ship I wanted them to. The ability to choose targets is invaluable and is really critical in even numbered battles.

I have also found chain shot to be extremely useful. I tend to not use it on my SOL's, but it is great with the Frigates long range. Early in the game frigates and chain shot are just about the only way to take down pirate/Spanish galleons effectively.

[Tim1988]

I tend to use chainshot against stronger ships than mine, and round against weaker. Roundshot from a 5th or below will hardly hurt a line ship, for example, but if you dismast them, then you can get behind them and attack them without reply. If your ship is bigger, then use round and you should easily destroy or rout anything smaller than you. It should be noticed though that chain is only usefull if the enemy are sailing downwind, so their sails are up. If this is the case then a couple of broadsides from even a fifth rate will dismast most ships.

[Draetor24]

I use alt-left click all the time now, but it doesn't work all that much really. I mean, if one of your ship's line of fire is on another ship beside the selected one, it will use all it's guns on it, and by the time you can use those guns on the ship you selected, you are re-loading. So you basically need to use the broadside commands to really select when and when not to fire, or at least turn auto-atk off. I find auto-atk firing has the best accuracy though, and broadside atks usually have half the cannons missing.

[Khassaki]

There are also some quirks that make the outcome less than predictable

This is a little mod that made my fleet actions much more predictable

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=320774

my 5 4th rates took on 3 consecutive fleets of 20 brigs and sloops, sinking them all for the loss of about 20 guns between all of my ships. That just won't happen in the vanilla game because the 6 pdr is dose far too much damage.

[deadlyshadow187]

Stop using crappy ships, and maybe u wouldn't lose so much...