High Elves

[Aethyr]

Looked around, couldnt find much resources anywhere or a place to put such a thread, perhaps a 'tactica' thread or sub board would be in order.

Anyhow, my post is in regards to highelves in particular, but generally the game.
It may be that I just suck, but I am having a hard time using my units with great success, I do play High Elves on TT but feel the elites, Swordmasters/White Lions/Phoenix Guard are playing different to such; understandable being a different platform of play but would like some assistance on general tactics.

My core feels as it should; steadfast, stoic, a nice solid defence against all but the toughest of foes, however my swordmasters feel a little lackluster in killing power, should I be setting up my anchors to take a charge and wrapping them around the back, or are they better to be sent forward to inflict pain on enemy lines before they reach my own.

I thought my White Lions would be good at taking down armoured opponents but they usually lose a standup fight like this although to do act stubborn enough to die to a man.

Phoenix guard, the ultimate tanks, except they actually kill pretty well too, fantastic unit, Im actually having better use with these guys as a hammer than as a anvil.

Basically, I think I could use some more knowlege on playing all together, but most of my experiments go nowhere, I would really appreciate some help or to be redirected to a location which could help sharpen my skills.

[Metallikat]

I have to say, I found the High Elves underwhelming as well. They just didn't seem as strong and resilient as they should be for a supposedly superior, elite fighting force.

[randir14]

They're remaking the faction, maybe they will make them more powerful.

[Ozzmosis]

Looked around, couldnt find much resources anywhere or a place to put such a thread, perhaps a 'tactica' thread or sub board would be in order.

Anyhow, my post is in regards to highelves in particular, but generally the game.
It may be that I just suck, but I am having a hard time using my units with great success, I do play High Elves on TT but feel the elites, Swordmasters/White Lions/Phoenix Guard are playing different to such; understandable being a different platform of play but would like some assistance on general tactics.

My core feels as it should; steadfast, stoic, a nice solid defence against all but the toughest of foes, however my swordmasters feel a little lackluster in killing power, should I be setting up my anchors to take a charge and wrapping them around the back, or are they better to be sent forward to inflict pain on enemy lines before they reach my own.

I thought my White Lions would be good at taking down armoured opponents but they usually lose a standup fight like this although to do act stubborn enough to die to a man.

Phoenix guard, the ultimate tanks, except they actually kill pretty well too, fantastic unit, Im actually having better use with these guys as a hammer than as a anvil.

Basically, I think I could use some more knowlege on playing all together, but most of my experiments go nowhere, I would really appreciate some help or to be redirected to a location which could help sharpen my skills.

I'm not so sure about the elves here, but from the custom battles I have played, and the elves in TATW, you generally want to do this: No matter how many spearmen you have, arrange them in a line that is the same width as the enemy infantry line, even if they are only one or two men deep. Put them in defence position, (this works better if they have spearwall) also save some spears if possible to help on the flanks against cavalry. Line up Heavy sword or axe infantry behind them and plug any gaps and strengthen the line. Now you have a near impenetrable defence line. Put archers (and ballistae) on the flanks, and infantry (if possible) behind them to defend. Put any cavalry you have even further out than them on the flanks. They will intercept enemy cavalry trying to flank, while archers can thin them. Always try to use your archers against the strongest units. Weaker rabble units like marauders/goblins etc will only waste themselves upon your spears anyway, so get the cavalry and monsters first. Have any projectile artillery behind the lines, such as catapults/mortars/trebuchets, and always have them on flaming shot. For best effect, use them to target units with more than 1 hp, or in the middle ranks, so that if they miss, there is a higher chance of them hitting other units.
If the enemy do not have cavalry or have very little, then try to bring your cavalry right around the back to charge into the flanks or right in the back. Try charging all the cavalry together for greatest morale impact against the enemy.

[Aethyr]

My findings are different.
Ran some tests against chaos.

Test 1
Vs Light Infantry, Marauders

Swordmasters cut them down suffering 36 casualties, light work
White lions took 56 casualties, while my Phoenix guard fended them off with about 70

Test 2
Vs Heavy Infantry, Khorne Chosen
Swordmasters winning with 60 odd deaths
White Lions taking top place with 30 odd deaths
and Phoenix guard nearly being cut down to a man, managed to hold on

Test 3
Super Heavy Cav
Chaos Champions mounted
Swordmasters cut to a man
White Lions taking a minor beating but hacking through armour and winning the day
Phoenix Guard taking 3 casualties win this battle and make short work of the mounted chaos 'champions'. It is also to be said that the Phoenix Guard were the only survivors unit to unit vs Blood Letters, i imagine this to be due to their halberds and the makeup of the BL.

The idea of spreading the spearwall is all well and good, but having the heavy infantry behind waiting for the spears to crumble isnt, imo proactive, that in mind, my contingents of Swordmasters will be throw at light infantry, White lions towards heavy inf and if required, cavalry, and my Phoenix guard, either in reserve for cav, or stiffening the line where the enemy armor is thickest.

As per archers attacking heaviest enemies first, I have had little success in even felling a handful of a well armoured dangerous enemy before they reach the lines with 2-3 units focussing them (even with bolt thrower support it seems futile) but can cut down light infantry in droves, which I believe would alleviate the battle lines allowing unengaged units to support their bogged down kinsmen.

The multiprong charges of our knights works well, but I prefer (at least) 1 unit to the front while the other rides past, comes around and crashes into the rear, once this is achieved, the initial unit from the front pulls away, and crashes into them again.

[Ozzmosis]

My findings are different.
Ran some tests against chaos.

Test 1
Vs Light Infantry, Marauders

Swordmasters cut them down suffering 36 casualties, light work
White lions took 56 casualties, while my Phoenix guard fended them off with about 70

Test 2
Vs Heavy Infantry, Khorne Chosen
Swordmasters winning with 60 odd deaths
White Lions taking top place with 30 odd deaths
and Phoenix guard nearly being cut down to a man, managed to hold on

Test 3
Super Heavy Cav
Chaos Champions mounted
Swordmasters cut to a man
White Lions taking a minor beating but hacking through armour and winning the day
Phoenix Guard taking 3 casualties win this battle and make short work of the mounted chaos 'champions'. It is also to be said that the Phoenix Guard were the only survivors unit to unit vs Blood Letters, i imagine this to be due to their halberds and the makeup of the BL.

The idea of spreading the spearwall is all well and good, but having the heavy infantry behind waiting for the spears to crumble isnt, imo proactive, that in mind, my contingents of Swordmasters will be throw at light infantry, White lions towards heavy inf and if required, cavalry, and my Phoenix guard, either in reserve for cav, or stiffening the line where the enemy armor is thickest.

As per archers attacking heaviest enemies first, I have had little success in even felling a handful of a well armoured dangerous enemy before they reach the lines with 2-3 units focussing them (even with bolt thrower support it seems futile) but can cut down light infantry in droves, which I believe would alleviate the battle lines allowing unengaged units to support their bogged down kinsmen.

The multiprong charges of our knights works well, but I prefer (at least) 1 unit to the front while the other rides past, comes around and crashes into the rear, once this is achieved, the initial unit from the front pulls away, and crashes into them again.

I guess the elves aren't really special in this game, especially when compared to chaos/vampires etc. but I'm surpried that swordMASTERS are so weak. I think maybe they should have 2hp just so they can contend with chaos units and to convey their skill.
With archers, IMO elven archers should have AP in which case they would cut down the knights/heavy units easily, and since the spears aren't so strong either, it may be a good idea to try and take down numbers rather than quality units.
I had most success with the spear line technique as Gondor against Mordor in TATW, with citadel guards in shieldwall, only 400 men, but spread to about 2 men thin. I only had a few infantry melee units, while there were about 4000 orcs. But with this technique, pretty much all the orcs were held, and I had my swords behind, and the line never really broke, because I had my swords moving forward, before the line broke at all, and even if there was a one or two man gap in the line, it was immediately filled. This allowed my swan knights to get in some monster charges in the flanks, killing about 300 men per charge, but routing them was hard, since the witchking was there, but even he was not able to get past my spears. I guess this tactic doesn't work as well when you're up against heavy units like chaos warriors and daemonic warriors (or trolls in TATW), but against lots of goblins etc. it works like a charm. Also a bit vulnerable to heavy missile units due to lack of mobility, though that can be countered by cavalry.
With these elves, it seems that the swords are best employed against weak units, axes against the heavily armoured and spears against cavalry but not really anything else. I guess it's back to rock/paper/scissors tactics!

[Revan The Great]

One thing that you need to keep in mind is that many of the Elvish soldiers are, infact, citizen militia rather than professional or particularly battle-hardened troops (with quite a few exceptions of course, but I'm talking about most of the 'line infantry').

Always try to use your archers against the strongest units. Weaker rabble units like marauders/goblins etc will only waste themselves upon your spears anyway, so get the cavalry and monsters first. Have any projectile artillery behind the lines, such as catapults/mortars/trebuchets, and always have them on flaming shot. For best effect, use them to target units with more than 1 hp, or in the middle ranks, so that if they miss, there is a higher chance of them hitting other units.

I think that's a terrible way to use archers. Aiming for the heavily armored, shielded, 2hp units is just a waste since it's likely your archers will only get to kill a small handful (10) of those, whereas had they been dispersing their fire into the ranks of the unarmored masses you'd maybe kill several hundred. Sheer difference in the 'bulk' of the enemy force that you've reduced far outweighs the superiority of the stats of the ten units you would've killed with your archers, no matter how powerful they are. Besides, even the light infantry (marauder desolators) can be devastating in a charge and cause almost as many casualties man for man in their suicide rushes than their better-armored, higher-priced brethren.

[Chevalier IX]

One thing that you need to keep in mind is that many of the Elvish soldiers are, infact, citizen militia rather than professional or particularly battle-hardened troops (with quite a few exceptions of course, but I'm talking about most of the 'line infantry').



I think that's a terrible way to use archers. Aiming for the heavily armored, shielded, 2hp units is just a waste since it's likely your archers will only get to kill a small handful (10) of those, whereas had they been dispersing their fire into the ranks of the unarmored masses you'd maybe kill several hundred. Sheer difference in the 'bulk' of the enemy force that you've reduced far outweighs the superiority of the stats of the ten units you would've killed with your archers, no matter how powerful they are. Besides, even the light infantry (marauder desolators) can be devastating in a charge and cause almost as many casualties man for man in their suicide rushes than their better-armored, higher-priced brethren.

I agree with the tactic here,for it is far better to eliminate the masses that would otherwise overwhelm your ranks than to waste thousands of arrows taking out the larger threats,for once the rabble is gone you can focus the attack on the more dangerous units,hence using superior numbers for local success

[Outlawstar15a2]

One thing that you need to keep in mind is that many of the Elvish soldiers are, infact, citizen militia rather than professional or particularly battle-hardened troops (with quite a few exceptions of course, but I'm talking about most of the 'line infantry').



I think that's a terrible way to use archers. Aiming for the heavily armored, shielded, 2hp units is just a waste since it's likely your archers will only get to kill a small handful (10) of those, whereas had they been dispersing their fire into the ranks of the unarmored masses you'd maybe kill several hundred. Sheer difference in the 'bulk' of the enemy force that you've reduced far outweighs the superiority of the stats of the ten units you would've killed with your archers, no matter how powerful they are. Besides, even the light infantry (marauder desolators) can be devastating in a charge and cause almost as many casualties man for man in their suicide rushes than their better-armored, higher-priced brethren.

Yeah but even so doesn't the Elvish military have thousands of years of experience? Weren't the Elves as a race fighting Chaos for a good 3,000 years? I would think that in that time they would improve their training regimes so that their line infantry would be stronger from boot. And considering the Elves are long lived they should have as much or more experience as their Chaos based counterparts.

[Vaz]

Hi guys, just a bit of a shameless plug - I've started a submod to increase the Elves potency, and would appreciate your thoughts in this matter. If you have a look in the submod section, you'll see the information about it. Shoot me up a PM, and I'll provide you with details etc if you're interested . Check my sig as well for the link.

[Maias227]

Looked through the stats and played a few battles and came up with a few things. Will post stuff here and in the balance thread.

General's Unit - Change the models to include normal plain silver helms and then simply intiate in the fluff that general's bodyguards, are first silver helms regiments as described in the army books? (the toughest silver helms basically)

Silver Helms - More armour. They have 15 right now as far as I could read and thats just not enough. They need to be somewhat on pair with the plain knights of the empire. Also as I looked over the knight stats, increase silver helms morale or reduce knights

Spearmen - Their role in their army is debateable but right now they are just not good enough considering they should be the mainstay of the elven army. But needless to say compared to human troops either their attack or defence must be improved. Morale is alright but may need buffing.

Swordmasters - As far as I can see fine, a bit more armour wouldn't hurt.

Lothern Spearelves - these are the de facto mainstay regiment and need to be changed. Pikes should go and be changed to spears. Increase secondary attack 1-2, may need armour increase as well

Phoenix Guards - Loose the pikes, they're not pikemen otherwise good as they are.

White Lions - Might need a slight increase in armour but otherwise good enough as well

high elf archers/Lothern sea guard archers - Something is a bit off here. Lothern archers are the best on the paper but not very good. High elf archers are downright poor. They do just as well as empire archers which is off.
Also looking at fluff, lothern sea guard are actually only equipped with bows while standard archers have longbows. It is the other way around here.
So my suggestion
- Buff elf archers, give the greatest range, more arrorws, and at least 2-3 increase in missile attack
- Decrease lothern seaguard range and maybe make them plain infantry otherwise just with bows? They are not supposed to be better archers than the elf archer regiments

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - need something altered so it is more effective to this is a general thign about warmachines.

Aethyr:I'm also Eldargar The Scholar on ulthuan.org btw so here's the numbers

[Werebear]

Looked through the stats and played a few battles and came up with a few things. Will post stuff here and in the balance thread.

General's Unit - Change the models to include normal plain silver helms and then simply intiate in the fluff that general's bodyguards, are first silver helms regiments as described in the army books? (the toughest silver helms basically)

Silver Helms - More armour. They have 15 right now as far as I could read and thats just not enough. They need to be somewhat on pair with the plain knights of the empire. Also as I looked over the knight stats, increase silver helms morale or reduce knights

Spearmen - Their role in their army is debateable but right now they are just not good enough considering they should be the mainstay of the elven army. But needless to say compared to human troops either their attack or defence must be improved. Morale is alright but may need buffing.

Swordmasters - As far as I can see fine, a bit more armour wouldn't hurt.

Lothern Spearelves - these are the de facto mainstay regiment and need to be changed. Pikes should go and be changed to spears. Increase secondary attack 1-2, may need armour increase as well

Phoenix Guards - Loose the pikes, they're not pikemen otherwise good as they are.

White Lions - Might need a slight increase in armour but otherwise good enough as well

high elf archers/Lothern sea guard archers - Something is a bit off here. Lothern archers are the best on the paper but not very good. High elf archers are downright poor. They do just as well as empire archers which is off.
Also looking at fluff, lothern sea guard are actually only equipped with bows while standard archers have longbows. It is the other way around here.
So my suggestion
- Buff elf archers, give the greatest range, more arrorws, and at least 2-3 increase in missile attack
- Decrease lothern seaguard range and maybe make them plain infantry otherwise just with bows? They are not supposed to be better archers than the elf archer regiments

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - need something altered so it is more effective to this is a general thign about warmachines.

Aethyr:I'm also Eldargar The Scholar on ulthuan.org btw so here's the numbers

we told 10 times,elves will be fully remaked later....

[andreaperrino]

we told 10 times,elves will be fully remaked later....

o YES this is a very nice news plz make some beatyfull armor and upgrade for shadow warrior

[♔DoomBunny666♔]

Silver Helms - More armour. They have 15 right now as far as I could read and thats just not enough. They need to be somewhat on pair with the plain knights of the empire. Also as I looked over the knight stats, increase silver helms morale or reduce knights

Empire Knights wear full plate armour...

[Maias227]

Oh I'm sorry, must have missed that somewhere. So you would prefere it if we did not bring up suggestions about how to change high elves?

[TheLastHeretic]

Don't get 'em wrong maias, the team usually seem grateful for any help provided. But the major problem atm seems to be solving scripted battle issues and other CTD's.
If you'd like to assist in improving elves etc then go to submods : the elves. That seems to be the best place for discussing possible improvements.

[King Siegfried]

Shadow Warriors don't need upgrades. They shouldn't see melee combat.

[andreaperrino]

Shadow Warriors don't need upgrades. They shouldn't see melee combat.

so? the archers have a upgrade,and anyway for me need some estetic change,like the cloak,need dark colour and whend is possible a better design,

[Maias227]

Silver helms have more weapon skill, more initative, the same morale and with a shield one less amour save. Right now Knightly orders are much much better. Though again I don't think the empire isn't much off, chaos morale though needs to re reduced, it is way too high.

And well the problems with high elves have been highlighted and the team is working on it I understand.

[♔DoomBunny666♔]

All morale does need a drop, hardly anything routs which renders the undeads morale lock near useless...