Which Faction?

[Mithrane]

So, I have a particular play style which I have very very rarely gotten a chance to use, but would like to give a try as a whole-game form of play. However, I can not, for the life of me, think of which faction would best give me access to such troops. So, I will do my best to describe here the formation / method to my madness and ask those with knowledge of Vanilla and Stainless Steel 6.1 to advise which faction would best fit this concept.

The basic troops required are...

-Pikes
-High stamina/morale infantry (prefferably defense focused, but offensive 2-handers work well in SS)
-Long Range archers (good crossbows work, but archers are prefferable)
-Good light cavalry with enough power to survive melee with similar troops / infantry for long enough to get away and charge again.

The following is an image of the basic layout. Red -Infantry. Green - Pikes. Blue - Archers. Purple - Cavalry. The key is to make the pikes 3-4 thick, the infantry in front of them 1-2 thick, and have the infantry IN the pikes. That is, the pikes poke JUST past the front of the infantry. In this way, you get the killing power and defensive power of both at once, while keeping enemy cavalry from ever getting through on the forward face of the forces.

Cavalry are set up to sweep out and catch any flankers if the enemy deploys them. Or, they can sweep out and take on the enemy archers / artillery (hence why they need to be light cavalry with good speed and survivability to get out of melee for another charge).

If the enemy focuses on one flank, move your reserve infantry to that flank and walk your pike-infantry line along their weaker flank. If they push in the center, you wrap around them with your pike-infantry lines and throw your reserve infantry in where the enemy is doing the most damage.

Light Cavalry ensures nothing survives by running. Archers do what archers do best.... lower morale before the fight and rip into the front line troops.

[Fremen Jones]

Nice tactic (when defensive), altough I would change your 3 reserve heavy infantry to 2 heavy cavalry units and 1 heavy infantry/spearmen.

1 army vs 1 army you will beat many but when your enemy gets (many) reinforcements this tactic is very hard to play with. when attacked from 2 sides you can't hold this tactic and your triangle will have to become a big half circle I guess ..

And you talk about "Good light cavalry with enough power to survive melee with similar troops / infantry for long enough to get away and charge again" , there are not many (or non?!) wich are able to do this I'm afraid. When you charge with light cavalry mostly you lose 5 to 8 soldiers in one charge (especially when it are spearman or heavy infantry) so I would change 4 light cavalry to 2 light cavalry and 2 heavy one (togheter with your other 2 heavy cavalry making it 4 in total) and you will be capable of doing much more damage & shock to the enemy.

Having those heavy cavalry is also required when you do get attacked from 2 sides so they can repeatingly charge on infantry/missile/cavalry troops who attack you from left/right/or behind so they are weakened when they reach your main army.

But however the idea of your infantry in the pikes of your pikemen is a superb idea, really !!

At the start of the battle I would prefer to place missile troops in front because they will attract the enemy cavalry .. And when these are willing to charge your missile troops can withdraw them behind your pikes/infantry so cavalry hits your spearwall !

[k/t]

Many factions have pike militia; if you want professional pikemen then you're looking at Spain, Portugal (best pikemen of all), and Scotland (second best). Spain and Portugal have crossbowmen, though. Scotland has archers, but they're not as good as those of other factions. Spain and Portugal have Jinetes, Scotland has Border Horse, or Mailed Knights, if you want something more durable.

[The Dutch Devil]

Many factions have pike militia; if you want professional pikemen then you're looking at Spain, Portugal (best pikemen of all), and Scotland (second best). Spain and Portugal have crossbowmen, though. Scotland has archers, but they're not as good as those of other factions. Spain and Portugal have Jinetes, Scotland has Border Horse, or Mailed Knights, if you want something more durable.

Or France/Venice both have archers and good pikemen, France also has good heavy cavalry and infantry. Which would make France the country of choice.

[Mithrane]

I'm honestly not too interested in heavy cavalry beyond a general or two in the army. Overall, I dislike the "wrecking ball" approach which heavy cavalry tends to foster.

The whole reason I came up with this basic army layout (which is VERY open to change, depending on enemy strength / composition and my available units) was because I happened to have a general which was vastly outnumbered and surrounded, sure to be attacked next turn. So, I bought what I could in mercs, which ended up being 3 units of pike militia, 2 units of crossbow militia, and some light cavalry. The battle came, as expected, and I positioned myself in a corner so they would have to attack my center or front flanks. The battle went SO well, that I began to search out militia pike-men to make armies around them. I could plant an "inferior" army in enemy territory and attract their troops in swarms, all the while losing very little.

That is one of the beauties of this army design. It is purpose built to plant itself in the enemy heartland and be a thorn in their side until my siege army can come up and take their towns / castles. Very rarely would I ever "attack" with this army. However, the light cavalry does a great job of enticing the enemy to give chase and fight me where I'm at. That is another reason I prefer light cavalry over heavy... they can get in, hit something, and get back in short order.

However, this brings up the survivability of the light cavalry which I mentioned. I play Stainless Steel 6.1, and can not really remember the stats in Vanilla anymore. However, in SS, light cavalry come in 2 basic types. The first is very hard hitting and fast, but with little / no armor (I'm talking 2-4 total defense value when basic spear militia start with 8+). These are great for dealing deadly blows, but are very fragile. The other type is the more robust form. They have lower attack value, lesser charges, and tend not to be quite as fast. However, they tend to have more moderate armor.

Don't confuse with medium cavalry, of which there is a decent amount in SS. I truely do mean light, fast cavalry which simply has enough armor to survive a volley or two of arrows and not get slaughtered as the AI tries to find a path through the enemy to get out again.

The main purpose for the cavalry is 3 fold, in this army.
1.) Entice enemy to charge my position. I send in cavalry to the weakes point on their center line, give it a single charge, and then run the heck back to my lines, thus getting the AI to give chase.
2.) Kill runners. I can not tell you the number of times I've had to fight the same troops over and over again because they rout in fear and then turn around and attack again next turn. The cavalry is there to ensure that doesn't happen.
3.) Exploit weaknesses. This includes getting behind the enemy to take out their artillery, which is the bane of this army's existance. Generally attack the undefended and pincer troops not engaged with my pikes.

[Fremen Jones]

I'm honestly not too interested in heavy cavalry beyond a general or two in the army. Overall, I dislike the "wrecking ball" approach which heavy cavalry tends to foster.

The whole reason I came up with this basic army layout (which is VERY open to change, depending on enemy strength / composition and my available units) was because I happened to have a general which was vastly outnumbered and surrounded, sure to be attacked next turn. So, I bought what I could in mercs, which ended up being 3 units of pike militia, 2 units of crossbow militia, and some light cavalry. The battle came, as expected, and I positioned myself in a corner so they would have to attack my center or front flanks. The battle went SO well, that I began to search out militia pike-men to make armies around them. I could plant an "inferior" army in enemy territory and attract their troops in swarms, all the while losing very little.

That is one of the beauties of this army design. It is purpose built to plant itself in the enemy heartland and be a thorn in their side until my siege army can come up and take their towns / castles. Very rarely would I ever "attack" with this army. However, the light cavalry does a great job of enticing the enemy to give chase and fight me where I'm at. That is another reason I prefer light cavalry over heavy... they can get in, hit something, and get back in short order.

However, this brings up the survivability of the light cavalry which I mentioned. I play Stainless Steel 6.1, and can not really remember the stats in Vanilla anymore. However, in SS, light cavalry come in 2 basic types. The first is very hard hitting and fast, but with little / no armor (I'm talking 2-4 total defense value when basic spear militia start with 8+). These are great for dealing deadly blows, but are very fragile. The other type is the more robust form. They have lower attack value, lesser charges, and tend not to be quite as fast. However, they tend to have more moderate armor.

Don't confuse with medium cavalry, of which there is a decent amount in SS. I truely do mean light, fast cavalry which simply has enough armor to survive a volley or two of arrows and not get slaughtered as the AI tries to find a path through the enemy to get out again.

The main purpose for the cavalry is 3 fold, in this army.
1.) Entice enemy to charge my position. I send in cavalry to the weakes point on their center line, give it a single charge, and then run the heck back to my lines, thus getting the AI to give chase.
2.) Kill runners. I can not tell you the number of times I've had to fight the same troops over and over again because they rout in fear and then turn around and attack again next turn. The cavalry is there to ensure that doesn't happen.
3.) Exploit weaknesses. This includes getting behind the enemy to take out their artillery, which is the bane of this army's existance. Generally attack the undefended and pincer troops not engaged with my pikes.

Ok I have to be anest I agree with you about the light cavalry, really ..

I tried this tactic in custom battle a couple of times and now I can agree that it's perfectly possible to do this with light cavalry.

What I also see is that the army is relatively cheap and it gains many 'heroic' victories ! (wich I love !!)

So in many ways this tactic is very usefull !

BUT I have one question, the heavy infantry in your pikes, is it better to have units with the spear wall function (like byzantine infantry & dismounted latinkon) or is it better to leave them in normal formation?

[Mithrane]

Ok I have to be anest I agree with you about the light cavalry, really ..

I tried this tactic in custom battle a couple of times and now I can agree that it's perfectly possible to do this with light cavalry.

What I also see is that the army is relatively cheap and it gains many 'heroic' victories ! (wich I love !!)

So in many ways this tactic is very usefull !

BUT I have one question, the heavy infantry in your pikes, is it better to have units with the spear wall function (like byzantine infantry & dismounted latinkon) or is it better to leave them in normal formation?

It is better to leave them in normal formation. If they have the "may charge without orders" perk, then keep in defensive position. The point of the heavy infantry is to be the damage that kills things and have enough armor to survive what forces its way through the pikes. For that reason, I tend to avoid spear-based infantry.

I find that the other melee weapons do much much better, in this order... swords, maces, axes. Swords generally give good attacks and tend to be wielded by well defended infantry. Or, if 2-handed, swords tend to be GREAT at hacking down 1 unit at a time while the pikes keep the rest off their back. Maces are superb at taking out their heavy infantry, and are my weapon of choice when going against a highly upgraded late-game enemy. Maces may be little good vs shields, but they'll tear through armor. Axes are wonderful against lightly armored troops. They rip them to shreds and cause fear, to boot. Sadly, most axe-wielding infantry are lower on the lines of stamina / armor, and often have a "may charge without orders" perk, all of which makes them less than ideal for the position.

Aside from spears, the only other unit I'd avoid in that position would be halberds. Halberds just don't do as well there, and are less anti-infantry focused.

[Fremen Jones]

It is better to leave them in normal formation. If they have the "may charge without orders" perk, then keep in defensive position. The point of the heavy infantry is to be the damage that kills things and have enough armor to survive what forces its way through the pikes. For that reason, I tend to avoid spear-based infantry.

I find that the other melee weapons do much much better, in this order... swords, maces, axes. Swords generally give good attacks and tend to be wielded by well defended infantry. Or, if 2-handed, swords tend to be GREAT at hacking down 1 unit at a time while the pikes keep the rest off their back. Maces are superb at taking out their heavy infantry, and are my weapon of choice when going against a highly upgraded late-game enemy. Maces may be little good vs shields, but they'll tear through armor. Axes are wonderful against lightly armored troops. They rip them to shreds and cause fear, to boot. Sadly, most axe-wielding infantry are lower on the lines of stamina / armor, and often have a "may charge without orders" perk, all of which makes them less than ideal for the position.

Aside from spears, the only other unit I'd avoid in that position would be halberds. Halberds just don't do as well there, and are less anti-infantry focused.

Thanks ..

That'll be pronoia infantry then for my side with Byzantine Guard Pikemen behind them ..

I really thought in close spearwall formation fully stretched out they would be better but I guess you are right.

However I will test it out on a custom game later on.

[Mithrane]

Thanks ..

That'll be pronoia infantry then for my side with Byzantine Guard Pikemen behind them ..

I really thought in close spearwall formation fully stretched out they would be better but I guess you are right.

However I will test it out on a custom game later on.

Please let me know how it goes with the testing.

I can see how the shield wall would seem like it would work well with this. My worry, and an issue I've had when using spear infantry in this position, is that they do not kill fast enough due partly to the spear's animation and partly due to their lower attack scores. When they don't kill fast enough, they get more tired more quickly, and it makes it possible for the line to be pushed back, which, in this formation, is a death blow to you if they can hold that bulge. Also, most spear infantry I've encountered do not have the stamina perk, which really is a key to using this army vs 3+ armies of full size.

If you can find that the Byzantine spears work well, you might be able to replace your light cavalry with some of the lighter Byzantine horse archers to augment the killing power. In this way, you can fire at the infantry engaged with your line from behind, but not worry as much as the shield wall is really intended to ward off arrows.

It would be a much more agressive form of this army, and unlikely to work quite as well vs multiple full enemy armies, but it would still work well enough, I'd think.