Shopping mall shooting in Espoo, Finland results in six dead (inc. the perpetrator)

[Monarchist]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8435857.stm

Finnish police have confirmed they have found the body of a gunman responsible for killing five people in a shooting rampage in the southern city of Espoo.

Investigators said 43-year-old Ibrahim Shkupolli shot dead three men and a woman with a 9mm pistol at a grocery shop inside the Sello shopping centre.
The body of Shkupolli's ex-girlfriend, who also worked at the shop, was later found dead at a flat in the city.

The incident is Finland's third major shooting in the past two years.
Police were first notified about the shooting inside the Prisma grocery store at 1008 local time (0808 GMT) on Thursday.

A witness told Finland's state broadcaster, YLE, that the gunman was dressed in black and appeared to have opened fire at random, hitting one man in the head and a woman in the stomach.

Not to use this terrible crime and tragedy as an excuse to push my political agenda, but: it looks like even the nations with massive gun control can't stop murder. All you people who accuse America of violence because of lax gun laws really need to look at the undercurrents in your nations. Maniacs and evil people remain maniacal and evil, and will find ways to carry out their fantasies, no matter how many restrictive laws are in place. Horrible human beings with no values such as this man can only be stopped by fellow citizens who carry their guns on them.

Again and again we are shown the results of gun restrictions. Indeed, this man who perpetrated the massacre was already prosecuted for owning a gun earlier! It didn't stop him.

[justicar5]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8435857.stm



Not to use this terrible crime and tragedy as an excuse to push my political agenda, but: it looks like even the nations with massive gun control can't stop murder. All you people who accuse America of violence because of lax gun laws really need to look at the undercurrents in your nations. Maniacs and evil people remain maniacal and evil, and will find ways to carry out their fantasies, no matter how many restrictive laws are in place. Horrible human beings with no values such as this man can only be stopped by fellow citizens who carry their guns on them.

Again and again we are shown the results of gun restrictions. Indeed, this man who perpetrated the massacre was already prosecuted for owning a gun earlier! It didn't stop him.

How much worse would it have been if he could have legally got semi-auto rifles and shotguns? How much more common are gun deaths in countries without tight gun controls? You cannot use this to argue for less gun control and should not use it to campaign for more. If people had been armed how many would have died in the shoot out, how many to misidentification? How many to score settling dressed up as misindetification?

[Monarchist]

I think the majority of human beings are actually more sensible than various left-leaning governments give them credit for, my friend!

[justicar5]

I think the majority of human beings are actually more sensible than various left-leaning governments give them credit for, my friend!

I actually agree that their should be less gun control, but this is not the way to argue for it. Use reason not emotion. The real irony was that the insane gun laws in UK comes from a Conservative right wing goverment.

[Monarchist]

I actually agree that their should be less gun control, but this is not the way to argue for it. Use reason not emotion. The real irony was that the insane gun laws in UK comes from a Conservative right wing goverment.

Reason and emotion are both powerful forces for pushing my view on others. Why should I neglect them when I believe I am right, anyway? Whatever works within the bounds of legality to get a good law in place is fine by me.

By the way, I would hardly call the Tories "conservative right wingers".

[justicar5]

Reason and emotion are both powerful forces for pushing my view on others. Why should I neglect them when I believe I am right, anyway? Whatever works within the bounds of legality to get a good law in place is fine by me.

By the way, I would hardly call the Tories "conservative right wingers".

in the pockets of big business, anti freedom of speech, anti workers, anti immigration, yup right wingers.

[Monarchist]

in the pockets of big business, anti freedom of speech, anti workers, anti immigration, yup right wingers.

... I don't think I can answer that. Yes, Tories are anti-workers because... they ... ? I have no answer. Calling any political party "anti-workers" is like saying "conservatives want children to go to bed hungry at night". It's nonsense. Anyway, assuming they are right wingers: they still passed a bad law. Even quasi-conservatives can make terrible mistakes which lead to stuff like this.

People always say that a reduction of gun laws would cause mass chaos, but it really doesn't. There are parts of Texas with laws protecting the right to carry concealed weapons. How much money will you bet that robberies and murders are down in number because the criminal-to-be wasn't sure if that woman or that man had a gun in his pocket? Deterrence really does work. Even if fewer gun laws did cause massive outbreaks of anarchy chaos (just ... no), it is the societal mindset itself that must be changed. There were no dumb gun laws in the 1950's, and the crime rate was significantly lower because the values of the society were better.

I must confess, I feel a guilty pleasure in knowing that Scandinavia isn't an icy little paradisewhere everbody is happy and there is no crime.

Well, that's the framing of my question in the first post. There are consequences to all bad government actions, and I feel horrid that anyone has to suffer for those.

Before this descends into a morass of left/right mudslinging, my condolences to the families. It's difficult to protect yourself from a random act. There will be many questions surrounding this incident. Let us hope that the answers and resolutions don't foster further violence they mean to prevent.

Condolences should always come before party squabbles. I refuse to let this issue go past a "common sense" issue, and into the realms of left/right nonsense. This is about human life and its protection, not who gets more bloody votes.

[Enemy of the State]

I'm not in favor of gun control in any way, but Finland has quite lax gun laws if I recall.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Has anyone noticed his name? A quick search confirms he comes from Pristina, Kosovo. But OK, immigrants can't do harm.

[justicar5]

Has anyone noticed his name? A quick search confirms he comes from Pristina, Kosovo. But OK, immigrants can't do harm.

Immogrants are human beings no better or worse than anyone else. Should we ban christianity for tha actions of the IRA and UVF?

[Enemy of the State]

Has anyone noticed his name? A quick search confirms he comes from Pristina, Kosovo. But OK, immigrants can't do harm.

How does this matter? The last massacre was commited by a native Finn.

[Watchman]

How does this matter? The last massacre was commited by a native Finn.

The last several massacres. Actually, pretty much all of them. See for example Jokela and Kauhajoki, AKA The Finnisher and Teh Finnisher II.

Also, the OP agenda-pushing is fail. Finland's got about as many guns per capita as the US, most of them just happen to be hunting long-arms grossly ill-suited for urban crime and suicidal rampages. Handguns are rather rarer, but it's not like you can't get one legally; the cops by and large do a good enough job that getting one illegally tends to be tricky.

And do I even need to point out how categorically FAIL the armed US citizenry has been in deterring nevermind actually stopping any killing sprees ? And then there's the interesting question of why for example these tables look like they do...

I must confess, I feel a guilty pleasure in knowing that Scandinavia isn't an icy little paradisewhere everbody is happy and there is no crime.

The only people who claim that are idiots and tourism-industry salesmen. We just have noticeably less serious crime than most others. (Nitpickers would also point out that Finland isn't strictly speaking part of Scandinavia...)

Well, that's the framing of my question in the first post. There are consequences to all bad government actions, and I feel horrid that anyone has to suffer for those.

What "bad government actions" ?

There were no dumb gun laws in the 1950's, and the crime rate was significantly lower because the values of the society were better.

What, you mean like Blacks didn't yet have full civil rights and wimmin stayed in the kitchen...?
Bull.
Also, worth noting that even back then your crime rates were high by European standards - and back then Europe wasn't terribly gun-control either.

[Gelgoog]

And do I even need to point out how categorically FAIL the armed US citizenry has been in deterring nevermind actually stopping any killing sprees ? And then there's the interesting question of why for example

Most spree killers pick targets of least resistance. These usually involve gun free zones like government buildings, schools, etc. Many spree killers have been stopped in the US by armed citizens, however with only upto 4% of the American population having concealed carry licenses at best ( the number is even much smaller of those who actually carry) then you can see how spree shootings can occur with no one in the vicinity who is armed. You can also combine the fact that these shootings are usually over within a matter of minutes, so it does not leave time for someone to retrieve a firearm they have stowed in their vehicle or for police to arrive on scene ( police can be very slow to responding to shootings, due to the fact that they have to establish a perimeter and often wait for swat teams).

The fact that spree killings are statistically insignificant ( meaning their happen so infrequently) and that they are nearly impossible to prevent means that legislation is practically useless.

[Watchman]

Most spree killers pick targets of least resistance. These usually involve gun free zones like government buildings, schools, etc. Many spree killers have been stopped in the US by armed citizens, however with only upto 4% of the American population having concealed carry licenses at best ( the number is even much smaller of those who actually carry) then you can see how spree shootings can occur with no one in the vicinity who is armed. You can also combine the fact that these shootings are usually over within a matter of minutes, so it does not leave time for someone to retrieve a firearm they have stowed in their vehicle or for police to arrive on scene ( police can be very slow to responding to shootings, due to the fact that they have to establish a perimeter and often wait for swat teams).

The fact that spree killings are statistically insignificant ( meaning their happen so infrequently) and that they are nearly impossible to prevent means that legislation is practically useless.

Fair enough. Next question - why does the US get so damn many of these loons in the first place...?

[nce_wht_guy]

Has anyone noticed his name? A quick search confirms he comes from Pristina, Kosovo. But OK, immigrants can't do harm.

Yes, because that's the issue here.

[motiv-8]

Has anyone noticed his name? A quick search confirms he comes from Pristina, Kosovo. But OK, immigrants can't do harm.

Pretty sure this crime was sparked by a domestic dispute, not because he's an immigrant. Or Muslim. Or a bipedal organism. Or whatever.

[Del Valle]

I must confess, I feel a guilty pleasure in knowing that Scandinavia isn't an icy little paradisewhere everbody is happy and there is no crime.

[Nietzsche]

Before this descends into a morass of left/right mudslinging, my condolences to the families. It's difficult to protect yourself from a random act. There will be many questions surrounding this incident. Let us hope that the answers and resolutions don't foster further violence they mean to prevent.

[Katsumoto]

I don't see your point, owning guns in Finland is legal, so how is that massive gun control?

[hellheaven1987]

A 9mm pistol kill four men?? That gunner must be damned good, or he opened fire in close range.