Flanders

[SirWarts]

any body know how the Flanders arranged there armys in real life??

or for that matter England and HRE and Byzantine. Im not to familiar with
the arrangement medieval army's. Im sure it changes depending on the time
period but any ideas direction and what not would be cool im in a Flanders
campaign at the moment though.

[cedric37]

You mean how historically Flanders did fight during middle-age ?
Well, they rely heavily on militia known as "flanders commoners", composed of various halberd / spear / axe / goedendag units AND (they were one of the precursor in this along with the scots) they used a lots of pikemen.
They of course had some heavy cavalry (and heavy infantry) and noble fighters, but they used much militia than let say France for example.

I am playing the Flanders campaign right now and they get one of the best units you can dream of: flemish pikemen, this coupled with armored goedendag militia and halberd militias and you don't fear the french or the HRE anymore :p

He he.

[SirWarts]

Thank you for your response

Interesting. How would you go about arranging you units in battle formation?? And how would you execute the tactics once the battle is in play??Example Alexander the Greats hammer and anvil tactics.

Maybe if you want draw a picture of it.

[Kjertesvein]

http://ww.twcenter.net/forums/showth...12#post6529512

I mean this: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...49#post6527249

[cedric37]

Well i am not a battlefield genius but here is what i do as flanders get no good ranged units (not even bother recruit them...).

cavalry - pikemen - cavalry
---halberd/goedendag---
--dismounted feudal knights--

March on ennemy with pikemen, followed by armor piercing units, then heavy armored units (your reserve). Cavalry stay on sides to threaten ennemy ranged units.
Engage ennemy, flank with armor piercing units, possibly charge with your cav on the rear and send your heavy infantry if you need reinforce a position.

Maybe there are better tactics.

[Taiji]

I like this article in wikipedia, cool battle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Golden_Spurs

[cedric37]

Unfortunately, the battle is not detailed as i expected
But nice link anyway; it sort of reflect my own battlefield tactic ^^

[LaMuerte]

I'll add a little bit more , and I'll even add my amazing drawing skills!

The battle of the Golden Spurs :





I'll add a few more details about this battle:

-The French infantry started the attack and were doing quite well. They might have won the fight , but the French knights couldn't let the infantry claim victory so they pulled them back.

-Between the pikemen some soldiers armed with a goedendag (translates as 'goodday to you') were posted , with the task of killing dismounted knights.

-Godfried of Brabant and Raoul de Nesle were killed in the first charge

-After a crazy ride , Robert of Artois managed to reach the flagbearer of the Flemish. He tore a piece of the flag , but got hit and fell of his horse. (legend says he got hit by a monk called Willem van Saaftinghe). He tried to make himself recognizable , and asked for mercy , but he got mercilessly killed.

-The core of the French army consisted of about 2000 heavily armed knights , many of them from the Southers Netherlands. Flemisch didn't have a lot of support from the nobility , as the most heroic of them were in French captivity(amongst them Count Gwijde and his eldest son Robrecht of Béthune).

-Many Flemish nobles had oaths of loyalty to the French king AND the Flemisch count , so they decided to stay 'neutral' in this conflict.

I'll see if I can dig up some other Flemish militia battles...

[LaMuerte]

Battle of the Pevelenberg(18 april 1304)



-12000-15000 Flemisch soldiers formed a front of one kilometer. They had their backs covered with a wagon lager.These were more troops than the battle of the golden spurs , but they didn't have any reserves , and they had left their wagon camp nearly undefended.

-The core of the French army was formed by 3000 elite knights , and a bit more infantry than the battle of the golden spurs.

-The French were led by their king Filips , and his brothers Karel of Valois and Lodewijk of Evreux. Also duke Hugo V of Bourgondie , the counts of Saint Pol and Boulogne , the new constable Gaucher de Chatillon , and two marshalls of France were present.

-This wasn't really one big battle , but a sequence of smaller battles. A lot of psychological warfare was being applied:

1.From the beginning of the battle french troops were directed to the flanks and the back.

2.After the traditional archery exchange , the Flemisch were being pounded by 5 catapults. The hardest hit division (of Ypres) did a bold charge and managed to disable the catapults

3.Time and time again the French knights seemed to charge , only to stop at 20 meters , and then they retreat. On some occasions the French and Flemisch stared into each others eyes for minutes , without anything happening. (yes , the French had learned from the battle of the Golden Spurs)

4.French cavalry by that time had reached the Pevelenberg and noticed the camp was hardly defended. They tried to capture it but they failed. Had they succeeded the Flemisch would be surrounded.

5.The Flemisch had a lot of problems getting water. The French camped near a river so had no water problems.

6.By evening the Flemisch knew they were in dire straits , so they tried an all out attack. On the right wing Filips of Chieti succeeded in surpirising the French. Filips even reached the french king , killing his horse and slightly wounding him. Because the Flemisch were plundering , the king got out.

7. By nighttime Filips of Chieti decided it was futile to continue the fight , and left the battlefield.

8.The Flemisch divisions that were left got surrounded , and were killed along with their commander.


I'll try to add more when I find the time...

[Manco]

-The French infantry started the attack and were doing quite well. They might have won the fight , but the French knights couldn't let the infantry claim victory so they pulled them back.

It's more apt to say the missile troops did well against the Flemish. Before the French cavalry charged there had hardly been a melêe

-Between the pikemen some soldiers armed with a goedendag (translates as 'goodday to you') were posted , with the task of killing dismounted knights.

It's dangerous to overemphasize the godendac, the weapon was abandoned only a few years later. Though it did do it's job excellently in this battle.
(btw: the godendac does not come from goedendag (good day), more likely it's a combination of goed en dagge which basically means 'good thrusting weapon'. It's notable that the Flemish itself never called it the godendac, but simply called it a pinned staf (gepinde staf))

-The core of the French army consisted of about 2000 heavily armed knights , many of them from the Southers Netherlands. Flemisch didn't have a lot of support from the nobility , as the most heroic of them were in French captivity(amongst them Count Gwijde and his eldest son Robrecht of Béthune).

The Flemish actually had quite a bit of noble support, the revolting peasant army myth is far from the truth.
In reality it wasn't a fight between Flemish peasants and French nobility. It was more a fight between de-centralists and centralists, of a strongly urbanized population against the more traditional feudal French.

-Many Flemish nobles had oaths of loyalty to the French king AND the Flemisch count , so they decided to stay 'neutral' in this conflict.

The 400 nobles present at the battle would argue with that. That's a pretty large number.
I assume you've compared this with 2500 noble cavalry of the French. This includes also the retainers and men-at-arms, while the Flemish number is purely nobles.

3.Time and time again the French knights seemed to charge , only to stop at 20 meters , and then they retreat. On some occasions the French and Flemisch stared into each others eyes for minutes , without anything happening. (yes , the French had learned from the battle of the Golden Spurs)

Myths, the French merely tried to goad the Flemish in an unsupported charge, which was partially successful

4.French cavalry by that time had reached the Pevelenberg and noticed the camp was hardly defended. They tried to capture it but they failed. Had they succeeded the Flemisch would be surrounded.

Euhm, the French infantry successfully captured the Flemish supply lines. ANd they were not surrounded since the supplies were to the side of the Flemish forces, not the back.

5.The Flemisch had a lot of problems getting water. The French camped near a river so had no water problems.

True, though the heat affected the French as well. Several heavily armed knights died of hyperthermia on both sides

6.By evening the Flemisch knew they were in dire straits , so they tried an all out attack. On the right wing Filips of Chieti succeeded in surpirising the French. Filips even reached the french king , killing his horse and slightly wounding him. Because the Flemisch were plundering , the king got out.

Actually the attack came after negotiations were disrupted by a French flanking manoeuvre, but the French were indeed taken by surprise.

8.The Flemisch divisions that were left got surrounded , and were killed along with their commander.

Euhm, their commander William of Jülich died during the attack which nearly killed the French king. After which both forces retreated and the Flemish went home.
There was no massacre on Flemish forces, especially since a lot more French died than Flemish.

[LaMuerte]

@ Manco : Mad history skills , bro! (+rep)

@ SirWarts :

Here are a few of those pics I promised :

This first one is a standard battle line , pikemen in front , one peasant archer unit in front to try to draw the enemies cavalry to my centre ,heavy infantry and crossbowmen at the flanks , cavalry in reserve near flanks , as well as one heavy infantry unit in reserve at each flank. Catapults have got their fire at will disabled to save pikemen :o)



This second setup is a bit based upon the Roman Triplex Acies system. First row got the pikemen units distanced from each other , 2nd and 3rd line got heavy infantry units ready to be poured into the fight when needed , or can be redirected to protect flanks.




This 3rd picture shows the moment I would let the 2nd line charge in support of the pikemen. The melee has been going on for a few minutes , and the enemy should be getting tired by now.The 2nd line charges the enemy through the holes in the frontline (= charge bonus). 3rd line +
cavalry would be directed to the flanks now , to encircle the enemy. Make sure your pikemen got some experience under their belt when you use 'em like this.



The next one is a curved battleline around a hill. I use it when facing multiple armies , or when I know the enemy will try to flank me. Manually select primary targets for your crossbowmen and artillery. Adjust the direction of your battleline when the enemy tries to outmanouvre you. Just don't get caught with your pants down when the enemy rushes you when you adjust your lines.



And the last one will be the full-circle-of-fun. Never used it in a fight though. I reckon it's only good when you wanna die very slowly...Imagine meeting the Timurids with this formation. Will try it one day though.

[cedric37]

Thanks alot LaMuerte, very nice tales of battle!


The french knights did loose a lot of battles due to their arrogance and dedain for infantry.
They never learned from their mistakes and repeated the same stupid errors again and again.
Only when Du Guesclin took briefly the commands of some french armies, did France had brillant victories.

I am french but i always prefer a good infantry, isn't it a paradox ?

[LaMuerte]

Thanks alot LaMuerte, very nice tale of battle!


The french knights did loose a lot of battles due to their arrogance and dedain for infantry.
They never learned from their mistakes and repeated the same stupid errors again and again.
Only when Du Guesclin took briefly the commands of some french armies, did France had brillant victories.

I am french but i always prefer a good infantry, isn't it a paradox ?

Hahahaha....

PS: I'm Flemisch

[LaMuerte]

As for in game :

I use the Flemisch pikemen in a very flexible way. Sometimes I go for the standard battleline , with heavy infantry/cavalry on the flanks. At other times I use the Roman way of fighting (Triplex Acies) , with lots of room between seperate pikemen units , and heavy infantry in the 2nd and the 3rd line , which enters the fight , once most enemy units are engaged. Another favourite of mine is the curved battle line , usually around a hill , with artillery and missile units on the hill.One I still need to test is the full circle battleline , with missiles / support in the middle.

As you can read , the Flemisch pikeman is a unit that offers a lot of tactical flexibility. Amazing vs cavalry , very good at holding infantry back , these large units can keep the enemy tied down forever it seems.The only thing in my humble opinion it doesn't really do well is city assault.

[SirWarts]

cedric37 cavalry - pikemen - cavalry
---halberd/goedendag---
--dismounted feudal knights--


how many units of each type per line??

LaMuerte would you mind making a picture of you setup??

With what you explained??

[LaMuerte]

Sure , Sir Warts , just gimme a day or two , and I'll show you some nice examples.

[Kjertesvein]

Nice catapult effect on that flemish infantry unit :p You should be working for Tokus soon