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  1. #1
    Semisalis
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    Default Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/20...a_tehran.shtml

    Opposition sources say Iranian security forces have opened fire on protesters as some of the fiercest clashes in months erupted in the capital, Tehran.
    Unconfirmed reports said at least one person was shot dead but the police denied there had been any fatalities.
    Opposition parties had urged people to take to the streets as the Shia Muslim festival of Ashura reached a climax.
    People were chanting "Khamenei will be toppled", opposition sources said, a reference to Iran's Supreme Leader.
    Thousands of demonstrators are reported to have taken part in the protests, in defiance of official warnings.

    Sunday's clashes in Tehran were the most violent in months
    Initial reports said the security forces fired in the air to disperse the protests, but several different reports said that at least one, and possibly as many as four demonstrators, had been shot dead.
    Police sources, quoted by the Iranian Fars news agency, denied this, saying foreign media were exaggerating reports of unrest.
    Although there were deaths in the immediate aftermath of the disputed elections and protests in June, fatalities since then have been rare.
    The security forces clearly have to tread a fine line between not appearing weak but also not provoking opposition protesters, says Siavash Ardalan of BBC Persian TV.
    Police helicopters were seen flying over central Tehran as clouds of black smoke billowed into the sky, reports said.
    On the ground, the security forces clashed with protesters trying to reach central Enghelab Square, witnesses said.
    Protesters were chanting, "This is the month of blood", and calling for the downfall of Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, according to opposition websites.
    At the same time, crowds of pro-government demonstrators marched on Enghelab Street to voice support for Ayatollah Khamenei, witnesses said.
    Protests were also reported in the cities of Isfahan and Najafabad............. continue in the link

    Looks like things are getting more violent and the movement is getting away from democracy. However, maybe a little violence is needed, we can't be beaten for ever!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    All those who stand as barriers in the path of enlightenment would do well to remember this man, and the fate that befell him:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Last edited by Lord Consul; December 30, 2009 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Spoilered picture

  3. #3
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    Some videos


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  4. #4
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    well such unrest is expected especially during Ashura which remembers the injustice of the death of Imam Hossein at the hands of the tyrant,Yazid I.

    Is Khamenei a tyrant like Yazid too?
    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

  5. #5
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    Quote Originally Posted by Babur View Post
    well such unrest is expected especially during Ashura which remembers the injustice of the death of Imam Hossein at the hands of the tyrant,Yazid I.

    Is Khamenei a tyrant like Yazid too?
    One of the Slogans was something like this that Khamenei is worse than Yazid. It was an idiom and I can't translate the exact words to English.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    umm... death to the dictator? I rather like that slogan.
    "Midway upon the journey of our life
    I found myself within a forest dark,
    For the straightforward pathway had been lost." Dante Alighieri

  7. #7
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    Quote Originally Posted by Giuliano Taverna View Post
    umm... death to the dictator? I rather like that slogan.
    I don't like any "death to" slogans. But it's a good answer to regime slogans such as "death to US".

  8. #8

    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    under most scenarios I would agree with that rule of thumb, but I really don't care for dictators, especially theocrats like the supreme leader of Iran.

    When I hear young Iranians chanting that, I feel obliged to applaud. Its always important to remember that the people who chant death to america are told to under pain of death and the people that chant death to the dictator are told not to under pain of death, considering which has been more popular recently I have high hopes.
    "Midway upon the journey of our life
    I found myself within a forest dark,
    For the straightforward pathway had been lost." Dante Alighieri

  9. #9

    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    Yeah I would hope that 'death to' slogans aren't what they are really chanting for. But more like 'an end to'.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  10. #10
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    Yeah I would hope that 'death to' slogans aren't what they are really chanting for. But more like 'an end to'.
    Agreed.

    I am afraid that revolution may lead to bloody civil war. Can some of the Iranian members tell us how is the general feeling in more rural areas?

    Although I naturally incline to support the progressive protesters it does seem that most of them are from urban educated circles and young.

    What about more rural areas? How do they feel? Do they see the protesters as legitimate or as "US funded traitors"?

    Even if the regular army supports the opposition, there is a whole another "army" of revolutionary guards.
    Well, I don't have much contacts there, but once I saw two of my relatives from rural parts discussing about this. So I'm sure they are both, but which one have larger supporters I don't know.

    If army supports the people, then there would a bloody war between army and Sepah and if Army had not the support of people, Sepah would certainly win because it has much higher budget than regular army.

    I feel stupid asking this, but is there a legitimate possibility this whole green movement actually leads to a revolution.
    Unfortunately I don't think so. Opposition has targeted Khamenei himself and he will not get out of power easily.

    One thing I fear is that this statement is true "If a regime is made by blood, it should be kept by blood"

  11. #11
    eric2min's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    I feel stupid asking this, but is there a legitimate possibility this whole green movement actually leads to a revolution.
    Last edited by eric2min; December 28, 2009 at 02:38 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    Quote Originally Posted by eric2min View Post
    I feel stupid asking this, but is there a legitimate possibility this whole green movement actually leads to a revolution.
    If violent actions continue to erupt between the two groups, there's a distinct possibility I would think. How intricate a rebellion would be all depends on who in the military would end up supporting.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  13. #13

    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    Quote Originally Posted by eric2min View Post
    I feel stupid asking this, but is there a legitimate possibility this whole green movement actually leads to a revolution.

    I am afraid that revolution may lead to bloody civil war. Can some of the Iranian members tell us how is the general feeling in more rural areas?

    Although I naturally incline to support the progressive protesters it does seem that most of them are from urban educated circles and young.

    What about more rural areas? How do they feel? Do they see the protesters as legitimate or as "US funded traitors"?

    Even if the regular army supports the opposition, there is a whole another "army" of revolutionary guards.
    Ugly as the north end of a pig going south

    гурманска пљескавица пуњена ролованом пилетином и умотана у сланину, па све то у кајмаку

  14. #14

    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    There is no chance of a Romanian type revolution.If demonstrations go bigger and more violent then a Tienanmen scenario is more possible.In order for the demonstrators to succeed one of these things must occur:

    1)Or the army and the police abandons Ajmadinejad and joins the demonstators
    2)Or the regime feared for the future decides to change some things

    None of these things can happen in Iran.The demonstrators are alone and regardless what the west says Ahmadinejad has his supporters

  15. #15
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    The opposition figures have now been arrested by the government:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Iran opposition figures arrested after protests


    The official death toll from the latest protests is the highest since June

    A number of opposition figures have been arrested in Iran, a day after violent protests in the capital left at least eight people dead.

    Those detained include senior aides to opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi.
    His nephew Seyed Ali Mousavi was among those killed in Sunday's violence, the worst since June's contested elections.
    Family members say they are being prevented from holding his funeral because his body has been taken from the hospital where it was being kept.
    His brother, Seyed Reza Mousavi, is quoted by the reformist website Parlemannews as saying: "Nobody accepts responsibility for taking away the body... We cannot have a funeral before we find the body."
    Other opposition sources say the body has been taken by government agents in order to prevent his funeral becoming a rallying point for more protests.
    Foreign media face severe restrictions in Iran and these reports cannot be verified.
    RECENT UNREST IN IRAN
    19 Dec: Influential dissident cleric Grand Ayatollah Hoseyn Ali Montazeri dies aged 87
    21 Dec: Tens of thousands attend his funeral in Qom; reports of clashes between opposition supporters and security forces
    22 Dec: Further confrontations reported in Qom
    23 Dec: More clashes reported in city of Isfahan as memorial is held
    24 Dec: Iran reportedly bans further memorial services for Montazeri except in his birthplace and Qom
    26 Dec: Clashes reported in central and northern Tehran
    27 Dec: At least eight dead following anti-government protests in Tehran; 300 reported arrested

    An opposition website, Norooz, said police had fired teargas on Monday to disperse a group of Mousavi supporters who were demonstrating outside the hospital.
    According to Mr Mousavi's website, Seyed Ali Mousavi was shot in the back as security forces fired on demonstrators in Tehran on Sunday.
    BBC Tehran correspondent Jon Leyne, reporting from London, says the government's immediate response to the latest confrontation has been to arrest senior opposition figures, as it did after protests against the disputed presidential elections in June.
    The authorities are blaming troublemakers for the violence, our correspondent says, with the police denying that security forces are responsible for any deaths and suggesting that protesters may have shot each other.
    Members of the opposition believe Seyed Ali Mousavi was deliberately targeted by the government in an attempt to intimidate Mir Hossein Mousavi.
    But, our correspondent adds, the government will be doing itself no favours if it has taken his body because this would outrage religious conservatives, as well as the opposition.

    'Shameless act'

    Among those reported arrested on Monday were opposition politician Ebrahim Yazdi, a foreign minister after the 1979 revolution and now leader of the Freedom Movement of Iran, and his nephew, Lily Tavasoli.
    Ebrahim Yazdi, pictured in 2005, was also arrested in June this year

    Mr Yazdi's son Khalil, who lives in the US, told the BBC's World Today programme he believed the Iranian authorities wanted to close down all opposition groups.
    "It is a shameless and irresponsible act," he said.
    "Any opposition now, they want to shut [it] down. We're going down a one-way street that's now going downhill."
    The Parlemannews website reported that three aides to Mir Hossein Mousavi had been arrested.
    It also named two aides to reformist former President Mohammad Khatami as being among those rounded up by the authorities.
    Mousavi Tebrizi, a senior cleric from the holy city of Qom who is close to Mr Mousavi, is also reported to have been arrested.
    The protests, which began after President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's controversial re-election in June, have grown into the biggest challenge to the government since the 1979 Islamic revolution.

    Tear gas reports

    Monday's arrests follow violent clashes which broke out on Sunday after opposition supporters took to the streets as the Shia Muslim festival of Ashura reached its climax.



    In pictures: Tehran clashes

    Police fired tear gas to disperse crowds of demonstrators in various parts of the city overnight, according to reports.
    On Monday, state-owned English-language Press TV said eight people had died. Earlier, Persian state television had reported at least 15 people killed.
    The official death toll for Sunday's confrontation is the highest since June.
    Tehran's police chief, Azizollah Rajabzadeh, was among dozens of security force members injured in the clashes, officials said.
    About 300 people were detained after the protests, police said on Sunday.
    Unconfirmed reports said four people also died in protests in the north-western city of Tabriz and there were clashes in Isfahan and Najafabad in central Iran and Shiraz in the south.

    Footage shows protesters appearing to taunt members of the Basij militia in Tehran - 27 December 2009

    Moderate cleric Mehdi Karoubi, who came fourth in last June's election, criticised Iran's rulers for Sunday's violence, an opposition website reported.
    The United States, France, Germany and Canada have all condemned the violence.
    In a strongly-worded statement, German Chancellor Angela Merkel criticised the "unacceptable actions of the security forces" and urged Tehran to respect civil rights.
    Iranian security forces have been on alert since influential dissident cleric Grand Ayatollah Hoseyn Ali Montazeri died a week ago aged 87.
    His funeral attracted tens of thousands of pro-reform supporters, many of whom shouted anti-government slogans.
    Anger at last June's elections, won by incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, sparked mass protests in Tehran and other cities that led to thousands of arrests and some deaths.
    Mr Mousavi and other opposition leaders have said the poll was rigged.


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8432297.stm

    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    The way I see it, the Iranian government has a problem they can't control. After the war with Iraq they handed out massive incentives to Iranian mothers to have more children. The result of that was to produce a generation of young Iranians who seem to rightfully blame their theocratic government for the fact that they are jobless, repressed, and constantly on the verge of war thanks to the illegal weapons program.

    The decision about whether or not this will become a revolution isn't up to the government, they will do their best to violently repressed this, its up to the protesters. If they are willing to die for the cause, the government will fall simply because they are outnumbered. Earlier this summer I thought they protesters might give up, but recent events have swayed me, I'm now hopeful that there will be a green revolution in Iran, and hopefully a secular government that will be a friend and an ally in the region.
    "Midway upon the journey of our life
    I found myself within a forest dark,
    For the straightforward pathway had been lost." Dante Alighieri

  17. #17

    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    This is so like Moscow in 1993.

  18. #18
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    This is so like Moscow in 1993.
    how does ethnocentrism relate to this thread exactly? I don't see how much more power can be given to the executive,which happend with the case of the new 1993 Constitution in Russia.

    The Supreme Leader wields supreme authority, here is the Iranian constitution to support my point:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    8- The Leader or Leadership Council Article 107
    After the demise of the eminent marji' al-taqlid and great leader of the universal Islamic revolution, and founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatullah al-'Uzma Imam Khumayni - quddisa sirruh al-sharif - who was recognized and accepted as marji' and Leader by a decisive majority of the people, the task of appointing the Leader shall be vested with the experts elected by the people. The experts will review and consult among themselves concerning all the fuqaha' possessing the qualifications specified in Articles 5 and 109. In the event they find one of them better versed in Islamic regulations, the subjects of the fiqh, or in political and social Issues, or possessing general popularity or special prominence for any of the qualifications mentioned in Article 109, they shall elect him as the Leader. Otherwise, in the absence of such a superiority, they shall elect and declare one of them as the Leader. The Leader thus elected by the Assembly of Experts shall assume all the powers of the wilayat al-amr and all the responsibilities arising therefrom. The Leader is equal with the rest of the people of the country in the eyes of law.

    Article 108
    The law setting out the number and qualifications of the experts [mentioned in, the preceding article], the mode of their election, and the code of procedure regulating the sessions during the first term must be drawn up by the fuqaha' on the first Guardian Council, passed by a majority of votes and then finally approved by the Leader of the Revolution. The power to make any subsequent change or a review of this law, or approval of all the provisions concerning the duties of the experts is vested in themselves.

    Article 109
    Following are the essential qualifications and conditions for the Leader:


    • 1.scholarship, as required for performing the functions of mufti in different fields of fiqh.
      2.Justice and piety, as required for the leadership of the Islamic Ummah.
      3.right political and social perspicacity, prudence, courage, administrative facilities and adequate capability for leadership. In case of multiplicity of persons fulfilling the above qualifications and conditions, the person possessing the better jurisprudential and political perspicacity will be given preference.

    Article 110 Following are the duties and powers of the Leadership:


    • 1.Delineation of the general policies of the Islamic Republic of Iran after consultation with the Nation's Exigency Council.
      2.Supervision over the proper execution of the general policies of the system.
      3.Issuing decrees for national referenda.
      4.Assuming supreme command of the armed forces.
      5.Declaration of war and peace, and the mobilization of the armed forces.
      6.Appointment, dismissal, and acceptance of resignation of:
      • 1.the fuqaha' on the Guardian Council.
        2.the supreme judicial authority of the country.
        3.the head of the radio and television network of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
        4.the chief of the joint staff.
        5.the chief commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps.
        6.the supreme commanders of the armed forces.

      7.Resolving differences between the three wings of the armed forces and regulation of their relations.
      8.Resolving the problems, which cannot be solved by conventional methods, through the Nation's Exigency Council.
      9.Signing the decree formalizing the election of the President of the Republic by the people. The suitability of candidates for the Presidency of the Republic, with respect to the qualifications specified in the Constitution, must be confirmed before elections take place by the Guardian Council;, and, in the case of the first term [of the Presidency], by the Leadership;
      10.Dismissal of the' President of the Republic, with due regard for the interests of the country, after the Supreme Court holds him guilty of the violation of his constitutional duties, or after a vote of the Islamic Consultative Assembly testifying to his incompetence on the basis of Article 89 of the Constitution.
      11.Pardoning or reducing the sentences of convicts, within the framework of Islamic criteria, on a recommendation [to that effect] from the Head of judicial power. The Leader may delegate part of his duties and powers to another person.

    Article 111 Whenever the Leader becomes incapable of fulfilling his constitutional duties, or lobs one of the qualifications mentioned in Articles 5 and 109, or it becomes known that he did not possess some of the qualifications initially, he will be dismissed. The authority of determination in this matter is vested with the experts specified in Article 108. In the event of the death, or resignation or dismissal of the Leader, the experts shall take steps within the shortest possible time for the appointment of the new Leader. Till the appointment of the new Leader, a council consisting of the President, head of the judicial power, and a faqih from the Guardian Council, upon the decision of the Nation's Exigency Council, shall temporarily take over all the duties of the Leader. In the event, during this period, any one of them is unable to fulfil his duties for whatsoever reason, another person, upon the decision of majority of fuqaha' in the Nation's Exigency Council shall be elected in his place. This council shall take action in respect of items 1,3,5, and 10, and sections d,e and f of item 6 of Article 110, upon the decision of three-fourths of the members of the Nation's Exigency Council. Whenever the Leader becomes temporarily unable to perform the duties of leadership owing to his illness or any other incident, then during this period, the council mentioned in this Article shall assume his duties.

    Article 112
    Upon the order of the Leader, the Nation's Exigency Council shall meet at any time the Guardian Council judges a proposed bill of the Islamic Consultative Assembly to be against the principles of Shariah or the Constitution, and the Assembly is 'unable to meet the expectations of the Guardian Council. Also, the Council shall meet for consideration on any issue forwarded to it by the Leader and shall carry out any other responsibility as mentioned in this Constitution. The permanent and changeable members of the Council shall be appointed by the Leader. The rules for the Council shall be formulated and approved by the Council members subject to the confirmation by the Leader.


    a more valid comparison would be the Pahlavis or perhaps even the tyranny of Yazid:

    Imam Hossein slaying a sepah



    this is from the website, rah-e-sabz.
    Last edited by Babur; December 28, 2009 at 10:58 AM.
    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    Great and Horrible

    The push away from such leadership is a great one, but I think Iran will screw themselves like most countries that change to democracy. I think the west will reap the rewards through its foreign interest.

  20. #20
    Mr. Scott's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tehran police 'in fatal clashes with protesters'

    Quote Originally Posted by BoJaN View Post
    Great and Horrible

    The push away from such leadership is a great one, but I think Iran will screw themselves like most countries that change to democracy. I think the west will reap the rewards through its foreign interest.

    Ehhh, they may not screw themselves, but the first few years of a nation's democracy are the most critical. If it does not start off to a good start then it is incredibly difficult to reverse. The US was lucky enough to have a very wise first president
    “When my information changes, I alter my conclusions.” ― John Maynard Keynes

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