Inciting the peasants to riot...

[hairlessOrphan]

Quick and dirty rioting question:

I noticed one of my neighbors has had a problem with a few of its towns rebelling, so I decided to earmark a few spies to try to get more of their towns to riot (and thus keep their military busy while I'm fighting elsewhere). Once I get the peasants to start rioting, do my spies need to stick around to keep them rioting? Does the presence of my spies increase the chances of a rioting town going rebel?

[StyggeKrumpen]

Yes more spies in a city more rebelling. Try also to use priest if your enemy has different religion than yourself.

[JorisofHolland]

Riot = Angry peasants
Civil Riot = Peasants rise up

For both you need to have the public order low, so yes, your spies have to stay.

[Swagger]

use assassins to sabotage churches, garrisons barracks. etc etc


if it has a different religion, send priests to convert the population (=religious unrest)

[hairlessOrphan]

Thanks for the replies. I was hoping that once a riot started it would perpetuate itself, but I guess my guys are the local ringleaders.

My assassins are kind of tied up on the other side of Europe, and the faction in question is my religion, so I think all I've got left are spies, but they're doing the job.

[hairlessOrphan]

Oops. One more question. Is it possible that Generals garrisoned in rioting towns can be killed by angry peasants? The faction leader just keeled over in the previously mentioned rioting town, but my spies don't see any assassins nearby and I didn't get any "King dead!" alerts for them at the end of the turn (two other faction leaders died that turn, and I got messages for those).

[Massive_attack]

Id wager he died of natural causes, and the throne passed onto his son without much fuss. Sometimes the mod forgets to send you those messages.

But no, a general typically will not die in riotous cities. More often, riots target soldier garrisons, and wound those.

Just be careful with your spies and assasins, what you ask is a very tricky thing, if you mess up and the enemy gets public order back together, you might end up losing lots of good agents for very little gain.

Personally i play a diplomatic game. I stay in good relations with rome and ally all my neighbors unless they are of a different religion. Thus far, it has worked very well. I just use assasins against enemy priests and spies for intelligence on enemy movements.

[hairlessOrphan]

Id wager he died of natural causes, and the throne passed onto his son without much fuss. Sometimes the mod forgets to send you those messages.

I would have thought so, too, except that it actually played the character-keels-over animation on the strategy map during the AI's turn. It's the same animation of being assassinated. Except I couldn't find any assassins or boats (this was in Dublin, one of the two neighbors I am currently trying to destabilize).

I agree that it's risky (though I've only ever once lost an inflitrated spy), but due to circumstances beyond my control I'd overextended SW, which forced me to make war with Aragon, who was allied with HRE, who I now need to destabilize. And, uh, I'm conquering Ireland, so I don't have much to offer them diplomatically.

[Caesar Clivus]

Generals wont get killed in rioting settlements. They will if they are in a settlement that rebels though.

[hairlessOrphan]

Generals wont get killed in rioting settlements. They will if they are in a settlement that rebels though.

Ha ha! I am now in a position to refute that statement. I took a city that rebelled from HRE, sacked it, and tried to use it as a bargaining chip to sue for peace. They didn't want it - and I forgot to set the taxes back down to keep the settlement happy. They rioted the next turn (without rebelling), and my poor garrisoned General paid the price.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Hmmmm....I guess it's just me, but whenever I try and help a neighboring town go Johnny Reb with spies and such the only effect I seem to conger is the town becoming more loyal {w/o increased units or order type buildings}. Guess I'm just not cut out for the dastardly deeds trade....

[spur390]

Playing with 6.2 RC4 and byg's assimilation and limited activities, I had a general killed in a riot, along with some troops. The settlement didn't rebel, didn't change ownership.

This game is all about the RNG.

[JorisofHolland]

Unrest goes down 'cause your spies don't cause unrest anymore once the settlement is yours.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

That's the problem though....the other guy's loyalty goes up and the settlement never rebels..... All I end end doing is treading water with like five spies or so. That's what.... $500 maintenace per turn that could be used elsewhere....I just stink at spy related stuff.......

[sbroadbent]

It's entirely possible that the AI had taxes set to high or very high before your spies moved in, and just adjusted the tax rate down to compensate for the increased unrest. I don't often find spies on their own are often successful. Sabotage some buildings or send in some priests if they are of a different religion to really cause some issues.

In fact, in my Templar campaign, I got Tayma to rebel from the Fatimids after sending in a bunch of priests and put the Catholic religion above 50%. It also helped that they cleared the town of most troops to send off on a jihad, so the religious unrest put them over the top.

I'm planning a subterfuge campaign/AAR where priests, diplomats, spies and assassins are my main offense in acquiring territory.

[Callawyn]

Not 'more spies'. Only one spy in the city counts, the one with the best subterfuge. So, if you've got a 5* spy in the city adding a 7* spy will increase unrest (and you can move the 5* guy out with no effect). If the 7* spy is in the city first, adding a 5* spy will have no effect. Keep the spy in the city until it actually goes rebel. Note that there's an ancillary you can gain for your spy ('false documents') which increases his subterfuge simply by being in a city that has <70 happiness. Note that the spy in the city also increases your assassins odds for assassinations/sabotage of anything in the city.

Religion: Note that heresy has massively more unrest effect than being of an opposing religion. So, do NOT move your priests in if there's a heretic/witch in the province. If of opposing religion, and heresy is low and not likely to increase, move a pack of priests/imams into the province and use your assassin to kill any priests/imams of another religion and then sabotage any religious buildings in the city. Helps to have 2 assassins handy, be sure to sabotage any buildings that reduce unrest (churches first, since they do both religion and unrest, then town hall series, then barracks, then brothels). If one of your priests turns heretic, do NOT kill the heretic, rather, move all your other priests out and let the heretic do his work. If the AI has a general in the city, he can often single-handedly prevent a rebellion (depending on how good his stats are, and how upset the populace is), be careful with your assassin: if you fail on an assassination mission against him you'll almost certainly find yourself at war with his faction. If the province is of the same religion you are, send in some of your most pathetic priests and hope one goes heretic.

Another source of unrest can come from enemy armies in the province, rebel armies count toward this so don't kill them. Your armies increase unrest only if you're at war with the AI faction owning the province (usually not the case if you're trying to flip the province with agents). Regardless, you should maintain an army within 1 turn's move of the city, so you can besiege immediately after it goes rebel (the turn order pretty much guarantees you'll have a chance, since the rebellion will occur at the end of the owning AI faction's turn, and the player always goes first on the subsequent turn. A 3rd party might beat you to it but the original owner never will). Note that if you can't get a real army to besiege in 1 move, sending a single crappy unit (1 cavalry, usually) will lock the province in a siege for you while you move your army in range. The besieged rebels will sally out to attack you, just hit the 'withdraw' button, and on your next turn move to besiege again. You won't lose any units, though you will show a +1 on battles lost on your faction panel, but this tactic prevents any AI factions from besieging the city unless they want to start a war with you (You go first, the rebels go last, so the only time the target city is not besieged by your army is at the start of your own next turn). If you don't mind taking hits to your number of battles lost, you can tie up any number of rebel provinces with miscellaneous crap units, sending 1 unit per turn per target to besiege until you get a real army moved up.

Using agents to make regions rebel is effective and cheap. While your main field armies are busy elsewhere, use your agents, and a half-stack army, to stir up trouble on quiet fronts, even against allies. Note that you can see religion% in any province on the map, once you've scouted (or map traded) the city/castle in that province. Look for city provinces with high (~20%) heresy for potential targets (castles are very difficult to force to rebel). Another easy target is high population cities recently captured by AI of the wrong religion (eg. Jerusalem gets taken by a muslim faction, send a spy in and watch it rebel). Once you get the city, use a diplo to trade it for a province with a castle, then get it to rebel again (playing Hungary, allied with Byzantium, I got 3 Byz cities to rebel, traded them for castles and got them to rebel again, then moved into Asia Minor and got 2 more cities to rebel. 8 province gain without ever losing the alliance, over the course of about 60 turns, using 3 spies, 6 assassins, 12 priests and a single half stack army just strong enough to take a rebel city).

If on your turn, your spy can't get the city below 70%, move him outside the city. The AI is stupid and may move part of the garrision away on the next turn, or increase the tax rate. Move the spy back in on the following turn. If the AI screws up even for a single turn, which it often does, you'll see additonal buildings damaged from the unrest. Even if you never get the city to rebel, you're forcing the AI to spend to repair these buildings damaged by unrest or sabotage, which can be quite expensive, for the salary of a single spy and maybe a couple of assassins. You need the city to stay at <70% for 2 consecutive turns to get it to rebel.

[Stephan de St. Omer]

Not 'more spies'. Only one spy in the city counts, the one with the best subterfuge. So, if you've got a 5* spy in the city adding a 7* spy will increase unrest (and you can move the 5* guy out with no effect). If the 7* spy is in the city first, adding a 5* spy will have no effect. Keep the spy in the city until it actually goes rebel. Note that there's an ancillary you can gain for your spy ('false documents') which increases his subterfuge simply by being in a city that has <70 happiness. Note that the spy in the city also increases your assassins odds for assassinations/sabotage of anything in the city.

Religion: Note that heresy has massively more unrest effect than being of an opposing religion. So, do NOT move your priests in if there's a heretic/witch in the province. If of opposing religion, and heresy is low and not likely to increase, move a pack of priests/imams into the province and use your assassin to kill any priests/imams of another religion and then sabotage any religious buildings in the city. Helps to have 2 assassins handy, be sure to sabotage any buildings that reduce unrest (churches first, since they do both religion and unrest, then town hall series, then barracks, then brothels). If one of your priests turns heretic, do NOT kill the heretic, rather, move all your other priests out and let the heretic do his work. If the AI has a general in the city, he can often single-handedly prevent a rebellion (depending on how good his stats are, and how upset the populace is), be careful with your assassin: if you fail on an assassination mission against him you'll almost certainly find yourself at war with his faction. If the province is of the same religion you are, send in some of your most pathetic priests and hope one goes heretic.

Another source of unrest can come from enemy armies in the province, rebel armies count toward this so don't kill them. Your armies increase unrest only if you're at war with the AI faction owning the province (usually not the case if you're trying to flip the province with agents). Regardless, you should maintain an army within 1 turn's move of the city, so you can besiege immediately after it goes rebel (the turn order pretty much guarantees you'll have a chance, since the rebellion will occur at the end of the owning AI faction's turn, and the player always goes first on the subsequent turn. A 3rd party might beat you to it but the original owner never will). Note that if you can't get a real army to besiege in 1 move, sending a single crappy unit (1 cavalry, usually) will lock the province in a siege for you while you move your army in range. The besieged rebels will sally out to attack you, just hit the 'withdraw' button, and on your next turn move to besiege again. You won't lose any units, though you will show a +1 on battles lost on your faction panel, but this tactic prevents any AI factions from besieging the city unless they want to start a war with you (You go first, the rebels go last, so the only time the target city is not besieged by your army is at the start of your own next turn). If you don't mind taking hits to your number of battles lost, you can tie up any number of rebel provinces with miscellaneous crap units, sending 1 unit per turn per target to besiege until you get a real army moved up.

Using agents to make regions rebel is effective and cheap. While your main field armies are busy elsewhere, use your agents, and a half-stack army, to stir up trouble on quiet fronts, even against allies. Note that you can see religion% in any province on the map, once you've scouted (or map traded) the city/castle in that province. Look for city provinces with high (~20%) heresy for potential targets (castles are very difficult to force to rebel). Another easy target is high population cities recently captured by AI of the wrong religion (eg. Jerusalem gets taken by a muslim faction, send a spy in and watch it rebel). Once you get the city, use a diplo to trade it for a province with a castle, then get it to rebel again (playing Hungary, allied with Byzantium, I got 3 Byz cities to rebel, traded them for castles and got them to rebel again, then moved into Asia Minor and got 2 more cities to rebel. 8 province gain without ever losing the alliance, over the course of about 60 turns, using 3 spies, 6 assassins, 12 priests and a single half stack army just strong enough to take a rebel city).

If on your turn, your spy can't get the city below 70%, move him outside the city. The AI is stupid and may move part of the garrision away on the next turn, or increase the tax rate. Move the spy back in on the following turn. If the AI screws up even for a single turn, which it often does, you'll see additonal buildings damaged from the unrest. Even if you never get the city to rebel, you're forcing the AI to spend to repair these buildings damaged by unrest or sabotage, which can be quite expensive, for the salary of a single spy and maybe a couple of assassins. You need the city to stay at <70% for 2 consecutive turns to get it to rebel.

Well described! +rep!

Kritic Stephan