Byzantine Bodyguards vs Western ones

[kozakk]

Ok i am a little confused about the effectiveness of generals bodyguards, specifically the effectiveness of the byzantine generals vs the western ones, in this case the Venetians. Ok so i go to siege Ragusa, and all they have in the city are 2 units of spear militias and a general, so i bring in 3 units of slav spear mercenaries and my general, we make it through the first unit of militias easily enough then the second one i actually managed to position my general for a flank so i wiped out over half of them, then they bring in their general. He did not charge, just rode up slowly and proceeded to join the engagement (we had just about the same number of bodygards), all of a suden my bodyguards start droping like flies so im forced to pull out with 20 left, my spear men are routing by this time, but they managed to kill 3/4 of the entire 3 units, and over 20 of my bodyguards while loosing 3 men.

Now they chance my general around the city for a bit while i bring extra troops in, they slowlly chip away while i try to get my general out until its him and another guard standing i manage to hide him behind my spear men, and now their remaining 40 bodyguards proceed to cut through all but 1/3 of my best spearmen before finally routing after the death of their general, with still a few left.

Ok so keep in mind im using RR/RC submod, the stats for my generals guards were 4 attk, 30 def, theirs were 6 attk, 21 def. Ok now i understand that in RR/RC attk and def stats aren't everything but should not my guys be at least equal, and more difficult to take down with those high def. I mean this happens a lot they always seem to just cut through my generals guards like they were light cavalry.

Btw i know this is supposed to go in the submod forum, but i never seem to get any replies there, and RR/RC is so widely used that i hope its not a big deal, move it if you must but i hope it can stay here.

[meese]

That's really odd because usually the byzantine generals are the ones which would win. I'd put it to fatigue - by the sounds of it, your general had been fighting for a while whereas the Venetian general was fresh.

[StyggeKrumpen]

It must be fatigue. Playing ass tyrkey getting attack by byzantines ive seen a byzantine general kill 3 full units of saracen militia then my silver chevron general. Normally byzantine generals are deadly but all generals gets a lot weaker when fatigue sets in.

[Leutrim]

Has to be fatigue, no other explanation, especially with 30 def stats.

[soulson]

Not to blow up your thread here but I have a few questions of my own. First being do AI generals get tired? Also, how does defense stats work? IE 30 def stats.

[Abyrvalg]

@kozakk

Just few quick tests, SS6.2 RC/RR 1.3

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I charged first


Waited for enemy charge


Charged them, in melee lost everyone

[kozakk]

@kozakk

Just few quick tests, SS6.2 RC/RR 1.3

Ya mate you are correct i did those same trials recently with very similar results. So it really must either be fatigue or just some odd positioning (that i didn't notice) that prevented my guys from attaching as effectively.

Thanks for replies and please close this thread.

[Anaatti]

In head on charge, i allways get clear victory as romans. Btw, does Roman bodyguards get tired fastern than western ?

[Deadly Rabbit]

fatigue and heat penalties hammer the byzantine bodyguard. They are almost unstoppable when fresh, but when they get tired they are much more vulnerable. I think their armour type (heavy lammellar) suffers high heat/fatigue penalties.

[Leutrim]

fatigue and heat penalties hammer the byzantine bodyguard. They are almost unstoppable when fresh, but when they get tired they are much more vulnerable. I think their armour type (heavy lammellar) suffers high heat/fatigue penalties.

I dont have a clue, but that would make logical sense.

[JorisofHolland]

heavy lammellar = heavy mail, right?
In that case, it's the same armour (well, it looks different) so there is another factor. Probably stamina or weight.

[Loose Cannon]

No, heavy lamellar is superior to heavy mail. Heavy lamellar has an armor rating of 9 while HM gets a rating of 6 (plus 1 to defense stat). That's why HL needs the 4th level armorer while HM only needs the 3rd. HL also has a higher heat effect (6 vs. 4) and takes more energy to pierce (125 vs. 100sword/85missile).

[Quercia]

Must be fatigue. That's why you should never fight against enemy Bodyguard with fatigued units. Even spearmen will die easily if tired.

[AnthoniusII]

The answer is simple.
Roman (byzantine) bodyguards have slightly better stats from the rest ones.
That made to reflect the superiority of the byzantine heavy forces in the early times.Even the Scholarii are superb to the point that upgraded feudal knights and chivalric ones apear making the Romans to look unefective.
That was the reality in medeival times.

[Fogofwar]

yep certainly fatigue....i've seen those Roman Bodyguards raped 7 (SEVEN) spearmen militia without any considerable loss, but when they are brought to fatigue, those spears can really bring them down.

[Fotchimus]

Byzantine bodyguard in my mind are probably the most ridiculous early campaign unit around. I'm very surprised someone actually thinks they are underpowered.

Play as the Seljuks in the early campaign and start a war with the Byzantines. Then come back and post what you think of them in this thread. There is no easy way to kill them. Archers won't do the job, spearmen won't do the job. The only easy way to take them out is with javelins. Preferably javelin cavalry. Whenever I fought the Byzantines, their bodyguard was often the only unit left at the end of the battle and I had to do all kinds of silly tactics just to finish them. Personally I think their defense should be reduced to 25 or so in line with the others. Maybe keeping their armor high and reducing defense skill (harder to avoid being hit in heavy armor).

The counterpoint to their absurdly high defense has always been "they are slower and tire fast" but even when exhausted they are still very difficult to kill.

[JorisofHolland]

They Byzantines are the most effective faction in Early Campaign, so why wouldn't there bodyguard match their cavalry?

[Fotchimus]

They Byzantines are the most effective faction in Early Campaign, so why wouldn't there bodyguard match their cavalry?

They could be toned down and still remain better than every faction in the early campaign. Their current stats are simply too high and there is little risk in being in melee with spearmen, the supposive counter to cavalry - which is stupid. I'm not talking about spear militia. Arab Infantry and Saracen militia cannot deal with them unless they can surround the bodyguard. That's not always an option when you are assaulting a city.

[JorisofHolland]

Maybe you can try the Prussian Spearmen (mercenary) or the Burgher Pikemen (those Dutch guys belonging to the TO)

[Fotchimus]

Maybe you can try the Prussian Spearmen (mercenary) or the Burgher Pikemen (those Dutch guys belonging to the TO)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You think those mercenaries are available to me here? In 1226? It sounds like you have never fought the Byzantines in the early campaign. Give it a try and play as the Seljuks. It's real fun spending a half hour trying to kill the bodyguard unit when the rest of their army is destroyed.