Plot Hole?

[wade_station3]

I know alot of people talk about the eagle problem, but what about the army of the dead? an immortal army is like an instant win right? why not completely pwn sauron with those guys? i'm not very informed on the book, but i think that's a much bigger plot hole. hell, just have those guys be frodo's bodyguards and problem solved!

[TheArtfulDodger]

ill answer this nicely, cause as soon as the regular see this, they will go mental. This quetions has been brought up so many times.

1. They are very hard to model
2. there are no animations for them
3. the greeny glow texture cannot be made.

all this equals, no army of the dead, unless someone proves me wrong

I dont mean to sound horrible, but i have answered this question loads

Artful

[ChaosReigns]

People who suggest these "solutions" and "plot holes" are really not very familiar with Tolkien's lore, because none of them work.

The Dead Men of Dunharrow (a.k.a. the Army of the Dead) were answerable only to the true king of Gondor and even then, when Isildur tried to enlist their aid against Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance they abandoned him and fled into the mountains. As such anyone who went on the Paths of the Dead, except for Aragorn, would have been murdered and indeed some were. Brego's (the second king of Rohan) son whose name escapes me at the moment swore an oath to take the Paths of the Dead and was killed. So, in summary, no one could have commanded the Dead Men except for Aragorn as the rightful heir of Isildur.

Secondly the Dead Men were not nearly as powerful as they are portrayed to be in the movie. They had no great physical strength and rather defeated the Corsairs of Umbar sent to invade southern Gondor (and yes, they did not, in fact, fight at the Pelennor Fields) through the fear they caused, not through some inherent invincibility.

The last problem is that even imagining that they were invincible and they did slay Sauron, it wouldn't matter. Sauron's physical body could be destroyed, but his spirit would remain "alive" and strong, and able to assume fresh physical form so long as the Ring existed. For Sauron to be truly destroyed and the threat he posed to Middle-earth to be ended permanently the Ring had to be destroyed. Sauron was slain at least twice, and it didn't stop his bid to conquer Middle-earth, his body just reformed after a time.

Unfortunately for this proposed instant win strategy however, the Dead Men were not invincible, or at least, I would guess they were not any more invincible than the Barrow-wights. I would be interested to see what would happen if they had actually been brought to the Pelennor while the Witch-king was still "alive", as the Orcs of Mordor were willing to throw themselves at the defenses of Minas Tirith (certain death) at the Black Captain's command. It would be fascinating to see how effective the Dead Men would actually prove against a foe that was more afraid of their leader than they were of them.

And lastly, the Dead Men were enticed to fight for Aragorn only because he promised to release them from their living death afterwards. Who knows how long they would have stayed in his service if he had dangled along true death in front of them like a carrot on a stick. They might have abandoned him after their battle against the Corsairs anyway.

As for the Eagles, they were unable to carry the Ring for fear of corruption. Tolkien notes that Frodo and Bilbo were remarkably resistant to the corruption of the Ring, whereas almost any other sentient being that picked it up was enthralled by its evil power almost immediately (see Isildur, Gollum, Boromir). Saruman was seduced by the Ring, in a sense, even though he never saw it in person! So, in summary, the Ring is VERY powerful, and its ability to dominate the will of others is a huge problem for the Free-peoples. Even Gandalf was afraid to touch the Ring, and his will is immensely strong. Now, contrary to what you might be thinking the Eagles are very much sentient. Therefore, to carry the Ring was to risk corruption. Now, imagine if an Eagle had killed Frodo and taken the Ring to some remote corner of Middle-earth where only a flying thing could go. That would be an absolute disaster, as Sauron's armies were actually mighty enough to topple the "good" kingdoms of Middle-earth without it. The Free-peoples were absolutely relying on the destruction of the Ring because they didn't have the strength of arms to oppose Sauron directly, unlike in the Second Age when the War of the Last Alliance took place.

Anyway, hopefully that's helpful, and don't worry about lacking knowledge of the lore. Everyone has to start somewhere eh?

[ackrite26]

I know alot of people talk about the eagle problem, but what about the army of the dead? an immortal army is like an instant win right? why not completely pwn sauron with those guys? i'm not very informed on the book, but i think that's a much bigger plot hole. hell, just have those guys be frodo's bodyguards and problem solved!

Please read the books before posting nonsense.

Its a little annoying people on this board suggesting ideas that have been discussed a million times already. And also to turn around and say something like "i'm not very informed on the book" but still suggesting ideas thinking they are correct without a little research to boot

[wade_station3]

artful, i was talking about the story, not the game. lol but thanks anyway.

chaosreigns, if the army of the dead could be stopped then it makes much more sense. but you would think something with the word "dead" in it would be pretty badass.

[ChaosReigns]

I'll break out my copy of The Return of the King and see if I can't find the quote where one of the characters (I can't remember whom at the moment, maybe it's the narrator) actually quite directly says that the only power the Dead Men had in them was the fear that they caused, kind of like the Nazgûl. Those that could overcome the fear would not, I imagine, find them to be overpowering.

Okay, so it's Legolas who says it, and the quote is:

I will tell you enough for your peace; for I felt not the horror, and I feared not the shadows of Men, powerless and frail as I deemed them.

A second quote of interest is this:

And there the men of Lamedon contested the fords with the fell folk of Harad and Umbar...defenders and foes alike gave up the battle and fled when we ["we" including the Dead Men] came

And lastly:

Thus we crossed over Gilrain, driving the allies of Mordor in rout before us

That suggests to me that the Corsairs and the Dead Men never actually fought, and that the Corsairs simply fled. The actual combat strength of the Dead Men was untested.

[eugenioso]

according to what ive read, wade says why not make an invincible army of the dead for the game?

well, i dont know. they did that for LOTRTW as a berserker unit with 20 hp and tons of attack and defense and then even suffered a couple of casualties (it sure was fun to see them eat 20 mumaks though, especially with the Oliphaunt cheat code that made them like LOTR the film)

can it be done here? i dont see a reason why not. basically the coding is the same

[Murfios]

There is a way to make units transparent, is there not? Or was that only on Rome?

[Muffer Nl]

Some of the more interesting information information in the dead comes from Gimle. He speaks of the army on foot and on horseback, all going swiftly and silently with pale glimmering weapons and armor. If those weapon could still bite I do not know.

[Withwnar]

I wonder if Orcs would fear the Army. Maybe they're as impervious as Elves are to Men spirits.

[Muffer Nl]

Orcs are cowardly beings. The only thing that makes them fight a battle is the prospect of victory or a greater fear of their masters.

[Altimis]

Question

If dead men do not have physical strength... why they can drag down those Mumakil [in the return of the king movie] =)

P.S. I'm not expert in LOTR

[Chyeaaaa111]

Question

If dead men do not have physical strength... why they can drag down those Mumakil [in the return of the king movie] =)

P.S. I'm not expert in LOTR

If you read the earlier threads, you will see the movie does not portray them properly at all. They never fought in the Battle of Minas Tirith and the Pelennor fields

[ChaosReigns]

If dead men do not have physical strength... why they can drag down those Mumakil [in the return of the king movie]

Because the movie is inaccurate.

[Altimis]

Because the movie is inaccurate.

okay, movie is just for entertainment anyway

[Xelathur]

Am I late to the party?

inb4 luc

[Plumo]

1 word:

IMBA

[Maverock]

Rep for your answer ChaosReigns

[Evan MF]

Guys it is sort of possible to get the ghostly look on units: you just don't give it any textures and this is the result you get:

Just need to work out how to make it greener.



Evan

[Jean=A=Luc]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/searc...earchid=328082

add these two:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...highlight=army
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...highlight=army

Closed with great satisfaction. Oh yeah...mmm, closing Army of the Dead threads is better than sex... You guys should totaly try it.