Kingdom of Bosnia

[NikeBG]

Leaving Bosnia out and putting countries like Serbia or Bulgaria, Florence, Burgundy in is not historical correct.

I just saw this and I have to react.
1. One thing to note: 1301. That's the magic number. The mod starts in 1301. This is the map of Bulgaria at that time (except Wallachia, although there are evidences suggesting it was still a tributary land at that time). And, btw, every person with a better knowledge of history knows Euratlas is a highly unreliable map source for actual serious research (and I'm not talking only about the Balkans, although the 1300 map is a true "golden nugget" there (because it's so mixed up that it looks as if it was made by a schoolboy)).
2. You say that Bosnia was a kingdom and thus deserves to be in the mod more than simple duchies etc. Well then, I wonder how your logic suddenly twists 180 degrees, putting the Bosnian kingdom above the Bulgarian empire. Further on, you don't care about the starting date, saying that Bosnia was important after the it as another reason for inclusion. However, you forget that after the starting date Serbia also actually became an empire (Stefan Dushan's time), even if for a short time and in that time was not simply the most important state on the Balkans, but was generally among the most important states in Eastern Europe. Something which Bosnia unfortunately never was, despite of its longer existing.

Now, I understand you desperately want to see your country presented before a large audience, especially since your particular country has the really bad luck of being in the Balkans and thus being included in maybe only a couple of games (Knights of Honor and eventually Crusader Kings), but why don't you focus all that energy and actually gather a team and make a Bosnian mod "yourself"? Kinda like what we did with BGTW. Not only that you would thus be able to portray Bosnia to the best of your abilities, but once you have your first release, other mods will actually be much more willing to consider borrowing your work for their own mods or even including Bosnia on their own, using your work as a guide. And considering the Tzardoms team has already done a great job on the units part, this makes your prospect all much easier (of course, if you make a Bosnian mod with Tzardom's work, don't forget that their work is theirs and if someone else later wants to use it, he should ask them).

[Tvrtko I.]

You are the best this mod will be one of the best ones ever made!

[Tvrtko I Kotromanic]

I just saw this and I have to react.
1. One thing to note: 1301. That's the magic number. The mod starts in 1301. This is the map of Bulgaria at that time (except Wallachia, although there are evidences suggesting it was still a tributary land at that time). And, btw, every person with a better knowledge of history knows Euratlas is a highly unreliable map source for actual serious research (and I'm not talking only about the Balkans, although the 1300 map is a true "golden nugget" there (because it's so mixed up that it looks as if it was made by a schoolboy)).
2. You say that Bosnia was a kingdom and thus deserves to be in the mod more than simple duchies etc. Well then, I wonder how your logic suddenly twists 180 degrees, putting the Bosnian kingdom above the Bulgarian empire. Further on, you don't care about the starting date, saying that Bosnia was important after the it as another reason for inclusion. However, you forget that after the starting date Serbia also actually became an empire (Stefan Dushan's time), even if for a short time and in that time was not simply the most important state on the Balkans, but was generally among the most important states in Eastern Europe. Something which Bosnia unfortunately never was, despite of its longer existing.

Now, I understand you desperately want to see your country presented before a large audience, especially since your particular country has the really bad luck of being in the Balkans and thus being included in maybe only a couple of games (Knights of Honor and eventually Crusader Kings), but why don't you focus all that energy and actually gather a team and make a Bosnian mod "yourself"? Kinda like what we did with BGTW. Not only that you would thus be able to portray Bosnia to the best of your abilities, but once you have your first release, other mods will actually be much more willing to consider borrowing your work for their own mods or even including Bosnia on their own, using your work as a guide. And considering the Tzardoms team has already done a great job on the units part, this makes your prospect all much easier (of course, if you make a Bosnian mod with Tzardom's work, don't forget that their work is theirs and if someone else later wants to use it, he should ask them).

1. That right, the mod starts in 1301. This is map of Europe in 1300 (according to Euratlas) with Bosnia in it:
http://www.euratlas.net/AHP/histoire...rope_1300.html

Bosnia for the time of Stephen II Kotromanich (1322.-1353.):
http://www.rmubreza.com.ba/onama/gal...1353%20%29.jpg

Map of prominent historian Prof. Marko Vego (various periods):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...34px-Bosna.jpg

Boundaries of Serbia (Texas University):
http://lib.utexas.edu/maps/historica...boundaries.gif

I quote: 'And, btw, every person with a better knowledge of history knows Euratlas is a highly unreliable map source for actual serious research (and I'm not talking only about the Balkans, although the 1300 map is a true "golden nugget" there (because it's so mixed up that it looks as if it was made by a schoolboy)).' end of quote.

Well by what means and by what criteria 'every person with better knowledge thinks that euratlas is unreliable'? By yours? these maps prove that euratlas is rights, at least when it comes to Bosnia.
Sapienti sat.


2. Yes Bosnia was a independent banate and VERY STRONG and RICH kingdom (very important exporter of gold and silver in Europe, especially in 12 and 13 century, when Europe was starving for prescious metals) and thus deserves to be in the mod more than simple duchies etc, especially because Bosnia now has no place in European history that it deserves, unfortunately. I suggest, let us correct that finally.

I'll support you when you say Bulgaria is strong, during that time Second Bulgarian empire existed.

However, when you mentioned that after the starting date, Serbia also actually became an empire (Stefan Dushan's time), I'll HAVE TO correct you. Serbia was never an EMPIRE! At least not officially. Dushan was SELF-PROCLAIMED TSAR, and HE ATTACKED AND HE WAS NOT RECOGNIZED BY BYZANTIUM (CONSTANTINOPLE performed a coronation for TSAR, and ROME performed coronation for KINGS). the same Dushan attacked Bosnia in 1350, but he had to retreat below Bosnian capital of Bobovac!

Serbia had an important role for a short time, but in comparison to Bosnia, it had no continuity in power, in South-Eastern Europe.

Neither Bosnia, nor Serbia were tsardoms, unfortunately. Bosnia always had the long continuity that Serbia never had. Serbia's continuity was broken since 1459. till 1830. (almost 400 years there was no name Serbia on the map). Bosnia always existed (independent) as a banate, as a kingdom, (Ottoman period) as pashaluk, as ejalet, Austro-Hungarian Monarchy (as a separate crown state - three crown states in A-U: Austria, Hungary and, guess what: Bosnia). Only time when its continuity was broken was whan agreement between Serb and Croat nationalists was reached (Cvetkovic-Macek 1939.-1941.) over division of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

i did not mean to insult you, but I only answer on insult by the insult.

I would like to see Serbia, Bosnia and Bulgaria in this mod, I believe that those countries deserve that, and I do not believe that they are less important than Florence i.e. or than some other WESTERN EUROPEAN duchies, republics etc.

IVIarkI2I[/URL]]BTW Bosnia will be choosable and I will not talk about it more!

I believe that this is enough said. Thanks, good job IVIarkI2I All the best and good luck my friend!

[NikeBG]

these maps prove that euratlas is rights, at least when it comes to Bosnia.

Do they? And I wasn't speaking about Bosnia, but about Euratlas in general. I'll give you one example (which I'm most familiar with) from the 1300 map (which is probably their most inaccurate): Bulgaria. It is shown as divided on 4 regions - Bulgaria (brown), Vidin (light brown), Principality of Karvuna (blue-grey) and Srednogorie (light grey). However, the map is supposed to depict Europe in the year 1300, but the problems are that:
1. Bulgaria "split" to three parts (Tarnovo Bulgaria, Bdin Bulgaria and Dobrudzhan Despotate (or as one Western traveller said then - "I passed through three lands and they were all called Bulgaria")) after 1371, when Tsar Ioan Alexander divided it between his sons. That's seven whole decades after 1300 and even if we take it that the map is not for the year 1300 itself, but for a general time period (which makes it invalid anyway), 1371 is still actually closer to 1400 than to 1300.
2. There has never been such a state as Srednogorie. The Srednogorie is just the name of a region in the middle Balkan Mountains and has always been a part of the Tarnovo Tsardom until the Ottoman conquest. My guess is that they wanted to represent Momchil Voivoda's realm, which, however, was first in Meropa and then in the Rhodopes to the south, with a centre in Xanti near the Aegean coast. And it existed between 1343 and 1345, which definitely doesn't qualify it for the map by any criteria. And, of course, it was never called Srednogorie, as there was never an independent realm there. (P.S. I just thought of another option where this mysterious Srednogorie appears from - in Western sources Bulgaria was often called "Zagore" at that time, so the map-maker might have thought of it as a separate state, seen that there's a similar-sounding Srednogorie region in the middle Balkans and called it so (in all cases, the research seems to have been as lousy as that).
So, to answer your questions "Well by what means and by what criteria 'every person with better knowledge thinks that euratlas is unreliable'? By yours?" - I believe it's clear now that after such truly mind-blowing mistakes, which show nearly non-existent research, Euratlas is not a valid source. And it's not only Bulgaria, mind you - I'm using it as an example simply because I'm most familiar with its history, but I also remember problems being reported with the Hebrides, Holy Roman Empire, Poland etc.

However, when you mentioned that after the starting date, Serbia also actually became an empire (Stefan Dushan's time), I'll HAVE TO correct you. Serbia was never an EMPIRE! At least not officially. Dushan was SELF-PROCLAIMED TSAR, and HE ATTACKED AND HE WAS NOT RECOGNIZED BY BYZANTIUM (CONSTANTINOPLE performed a coronation for TSAR, and ROME performed coronation for KINGS). the same Dushan attacked Bosnia in 1350, but he had to retreat below Bosnian capital of Bobovac!

Yes, I'm well-aware that Stefan Dushan wasn't recognized by Constantinople and was crowned as tsar only by the Bulgarian patriarch, with the blessing of Tsar Ioan Alexander, neither of which had the formal authority to do so. However, either for the sake of convenience or simply due to the great power he possessed at that time, most historians do call him Tsar Stefan Dushan, even if he wasn't officially recognized as such. The case is really similar to our Tsar Simeon I the Great, who also suffered a defeat in Bosnia (from the Croats), btw.

i did not mean to insult you, but I only answer on insult by the insult.

I don't see any insult neither in my posts, nor in yours.

I would like to see Serbia, Bosnia and Bulgaria in this mod, I believe that those countries deserve that

I believe so too and that's why I'm glad "the forgotten countries" from the east (including not only the Balkans, but other EE countries as well) are getting more and more prominence lately. However, there are still some problems, due to technicality and other factors, which don't allow them to shine as they actually did. I hope that in the future this will improve further on, but for the time being we have to live within the limits. Which is why I still suggest making a BosniaTW mod - at the very least, it would draw the attention of the other mods to that area.

[Tvrtko I Kotromanic]

Do they? And I wasn't speaking about Bosnia, but about Euratlas in general. I'll give you one example (which I'm most familiar with) from the 1300 map (which is probably their most inaccurate): Bulgaria. It is shown as divided on 4 regions - Bulgaria (brown), Vidin (light brown), Principality of Karvuna (blue-grey) and Srednogorie (light grey). However, the map is supposed to depict Europe in the year 1300, but the problems are that:
1. Bulgaria "split" to three parts (Tarnovo Bulgaria, Bdin Bulgaria and Dobrudzhan Despotate (or as one Western traveller said then - "I passed through three lands and they were all called Bulgaria")) after 1371, when Tsar Ioan Alexander divided it between his sons. That's seven whole decades after 1300 and even if we take it that the map is not for the year 1300 itself, but for a general time period (which makes it invalid anyway), 1371 is still actually closer to 1400 than to 1300.
2. There has never been such a state as Srednogorie. The Srednogorie is just the name of a region in the middle Balkan Mountains and has always been a part of the Tarnovo Tsardom until the Ottoman conquest. My guess is that they wanted to represent Momchil Voivoda's realm, which, however, was first in Meropa and then in the Rhodopes to the south, with a centre in Xanti near the Aegean coast. And it existed between 1343 and 1345, which definitely doesn't qualify it for the map by any criteria. And, of course, it was never called Srednogorie, as there was never an independent realm there. (P.S. I just thought of another option where this mysterious Srednogorie appears from - in Western sources Bulgaria was often called "Zagore" at that time, so the map-maker might have thought of it as a separate state, seen that there's a similar-sounding Srednogorie region in the middle Balkans and called it so (in all cases, the research seems to have been as lousy as that).
So, to answer your questions "Well by what means and by what criteria 'every person with better knowledge thinks that euratlas is unreliable'? By yours?" - I believe it's clear now that after such truly mind-blowing mistakes, which show nearly non-existent research, Euratlas is not a valid source. And it's not only Bulgaria, mind you - I'm using it as an example simply because I'm most familiar with its history, but I also remember problems being reported with the Hebrides, Holy Roman Empire, Poland etc.


Yes, I'm well-aware that Stefan Dushan wasn't recognized by Constantinople and was crowned as tsar only by the Bulgarian patriarch, with the blessing of Tsar Ioan Alexander, neither of which had the formal authority to do so. However, either for the sake of convenience or simply due to the great power he possessed at that time, most historians do call him Tsar Stefan Dushan, even if he wasn't officially recognized as such. The case is really similar to our Tsar Simeon I the Great, who also suffered a defeat in Bosnia (from the Croats), btw.


I don't see any insult neither in my posts, nor in yours.


I believe so too and that's why I'm glad "the forgotten countries" from the east (including not only the Balkans, but other EE countries as well) are getting more and more prominence lately. However, there are still some problems, due to technicality and other factors, which don't allow them to shine as they actually did. I hope that in the future this will improve further on, but for the time being we have to live within the limits. Which is why I still suggest making a BosniaTW mod - at the very least, it would draw the attention of the other mods to that area.

I'll admit that there are errors in Euratlas, but not so large errors (I mean that if errors exist, they are below 5% roughly), and when it comes to Bosnia, I specified that Euratlas is right.

I meant that your assessment when it comes to Euratlas was too harsh and rough. Yes, there are mistakes, but, when you say it is not valid source, I'll correct you, YES, it is a valid source for at least 95% of European territory. Errors happen, but in any case, they are not so big for you to say that it is completely and absolutely unreliable. That is so not true. Yes, errors MUST be reported, but also, other valid things, MUST be recognized and appreciated.

I'm glad to hear that you are one of the rare people who recogized that Dushan was not really a tsar, but yes, he was powerful, I'll give you that.
When it comes to Tsar Simeon I the Great, he did suffered a defeat from the Croats, but it seems to me that you suggest that only Croats live in Bosnia at that time?? Yes Croats (and Bosnians) defeated him, but when it comes to Bosnia, Croats ruled over Bosnia (and over Bosnians) only a short period of time, when Bosnia had little or no strength, and when Croatia was stronger state than Bosnia.

Anyways, I definitely agree, it is good that EE countries and Balkan countries get the attention of people more and more, it is a final time. When you say Bosnian mod, I also believe that it is a last option, but still, I believe that it would be better for Bosnia to be included in one larger, more comprehensive mod, just like this one we are talking about.

[NikeBG]

Errors happen, but in any case, they are not so big for you to say that it is completely and absolutely unreliable.

Errors show flawed or completely missing research, which itself discredits the whole Euratlas itself. If f.e. a historian would write a 95% good book about the Byzantines, but in the final 5% starts talking how the Byzantines were literally angels under the direct command of God or something else equally wrong, wouldn't that discredit his whole book? Not to mention that the errors in Euratlas are IMO more than 5% even only for the cases that I've seen...

When it comes to Tsar Simeon I the Great, he did suffered a defeat from the Croats, but it seems to me that you suggest that only Croats live in Bosnia at that time??

No, I don't. I honestly have next to no idea what was the ethnic distribution of the Bosnian population at that time, probably mostly Bosnian, but what I meant is that the Battle of the Bosnian Highlands happened between Croatian and Bulgarian forces (though there might have been Bosnians, as well as Serbians included in the Croatian army, of course).

When you say Bosnian mod, I also believe that it is a last option,

I believe it should be the first option. True, it could be harder, but after that it would be easier for the bigger mods to notice and use it. While if it's first included in a big mod, there are problems like:
1. Becoming a generic non-unique (basically a repaint of an already existing faction) or non-accurate faction because the team can't make 30 fully unique and accurate ones.
2. The team deciding to try and make 30 unique factions and the mod eventually never getting finished.
3. Other similar reasons.
Now, in the Bosnian case it's easier, since the Tzardoms team already did a great work which can be used by the bigger mods set in its timeframe, but in general I think it's better to start with a small mod.

[Bosnian_King]

Errors show flawed or completely missing research, which itself discredits the whole Euratlas itself. If f.e. a historian would write a 95% good book about the Byzantines, but in the final 5% starts talking how the Byzantines were literally angels under the direct command of God or something else equally wrong, wouldn't that discredit his whole book? Not to mention that the errors in Euratlas are IMO more than 5% even only for the cases that I've seen...


No, I don't. I honestly have next to no idea what was the ethnic distribution of the Bosnian population at that time, probably mostly Bosnian, but what I meant is that the Battle of the Bosnian Highlands happened between Croatian and Bulgarian forces (though there might have been Bosnians, as well as Serbians included in the Croatian army, of course).


I believe it should be the first option. True, it could be harder, but after that it would be easier for the bigger mods to notice and use it. While if it's first included in a big mod, there are problems like:
1. Becoming a generic non-unique (basically a repaint of an already existing faction) or non-accurate faction because the team can't make 30 fully unique and accurate ones.
2. The team deciding to try and make 30 unique factions and the mod eventually never getting finished.
3. Other similar reasons.
Now, in the Bosnian case it's easier, since the Tzardoms team already did a great work which can be used by the bigger mods set in its timeframe, but in general I think it's better to start with a small mod.

Yes but how to start a smaller mod? That bosnian guy "pacco" he will retire from modding. I do not even play computer games; I am only interested in history. So who can help us with a smaller mod?

It is sad to see that nobody wants to integrate bosnia as a full faction, while it is very clear that bosnia was much more a state than Switzerland, Florence, Genoa, Flanders etc.

[IVIarkI2I]

Yes but how to start a smaller mod? That bosnian guy "pacco" he will retire from modding. I do not even play computer games; I am only interested in history. So who can help us with a smaller mod?

It is sad to see that nobody wants to integrate bosnia as a full faction, while it is very clear that bosnia was much more a state than Switzerland, Florence, Genoa, Flanders etc.

your right those were duchies and republics not states and bosnia was a kingdom

swiss is much more important as bosnia
genoa is here to represent one of most powerfull italian republic of this time

florence and flanders are at same position as bosnia so why you care about them? You can start moding yourself try to teach it why you think that pacco should do all about? I was also only a player but I was bored by games and mods so Ive managed to create my own mod and Ive learned all impotant stuff I want for this and found right people to do so easiest way is to say "I dont know that, Iwill not do that "

common dont be lazy and make a thread at wips forum

[Bosnian_King]

your right those were duchies and republics not states and bosnia was a kingdom

swiss is much more important as bosnia
genoa is here to represent one of most powerfull italian republic of this time

florence and flanders are at same position as bosnia so why you care about them? You can start moding yourself try to teach it why you think that pacco should do all about? I was also only a player but I was bored by games and mods so Ive managed to create my own mod and Ive learned all impotant stuff I want for this and found right people to do so easiest way is to say "I dont know that, Iwill not do that "

common dont be lazy and make a thread at wips forum

I am a very busy student. I dop not have time for that. May be another bosnian can.

The mod is not important. I do not care a lot about the mod. I regret it that people who make mods really think that Switzerland was "more important" than Bosnia. Do you know what you are saying? Bosnia as an independent state existed when Switzerland was part of the German Empire. Switzerlands has always been a federation of peoples. Bosnia was 3 times bigger than switzerland and 10 times richer, Bosnia was the number 1 exporter of gold and silver in south east europe. Where did you read that Switzerland was more important?

[sportsman81]

I think that, for now, it's very good that Bosnia WILL be included, at least, as a chooseable faction in this mod.
Regarding history facts about level of power and souvereignity of Bosnia and other already included factions (Granada, Novgorod, Burgundy, Swiss Confederacy, Genoa, Florence, Venice, Serbia, Bulgaria etc.), Bosnia could and could not be included as starting faction. May be only Swiss Confederacy and Burgundy were smaller or weaker than Bosnia and, all other starting factions were, at least, at the same power level and stronger than Bosnia. Therefore, it's OK that Bosnia will be included as chooseable faction and in future we may see it in starting position.

Anyway, thanks a lot for making this mod with Bosnia as a choosable faction

p.s. Approximately, when this mod will be ready for downloading?

[IVIarkI2I]

I am a very busy student. I dop not have time for that. May be another bosnian can.

The mod is not important. I do not care a lot about the mod. I regret it that people who make mods really think that Switzerland was "more important" than Bosnia. Do you know what you are saying? Bosnia as an independent state existed when Switzerland was part of the German Empire. Switzerlands has always been a federation of peoples. Bosnia was 3 times bigger than switzerland and 10 times richer, Bosnia was the number 1 exporter of gold and silver in south east europe. Where did you read that Switzerland was more important?

hopefully some will do that job

I fullyknow what Iam saying , Swiss cantons defeated huge load of Habsburgh cavalery (5 000) with 500 militias and levies armed with halberts and pikes. Such huge defeat was like thorn thrown to HREs hearth did Bosnia defeated such big army? Swiss guys were one of most fearfull soldiers a bears from mountains they were really unique power in centre of empires they survived untill those days with much bigger territory as on the begining (1300) do Bosnians have same big country as before? Are they as power as before no but Swiss still are in europe as a nation stll pretty unique nation and everybody whos saying they were nothing at 1300 is not important for me

I think that, for now, it's very good that Bosnia WILL be included, at least, as a chooseable faction in this mod.
Regarding history facts about level of power and souvereignity of Bosnia and other already included factions (Granada, Novgorod, Burgundy, Swiss Confederacy, Genoa, Florence, Venice, Serbia, Bulgaria etc.), Bosnia could and could not be included as starting faction. May be only Swiss Confederacy and Burgundy were smaller or weaker than Bosnia and, all other starting factions were, at least, at the same power level and stronger than Bosnia. Therefore, it's OK that Bosnia will be included as chooseable faction and in future we may see it in starting position.

Anyway, thanks a lot for making this mod with Bosnia as a choosable faction

p.s. Approximately, when this mod will be ready for downloading?

no future first position maybe a submod ceated by fan

ps:when its done

[sportsman81]

OK!
Can you tell us, what is the actual progress of this mod, in percentage?
Regards

[Bosnian_King]

hopefully some will do that job

I fullyknow what Iam saying , Swiss cantons defeated huge load of Habsburgh cavalery (5 000) with 500 militias and levies armed with halberts and pikes. Such huge defeat was like thorn thrown to HREs hearth did Bosnia defeated such big army? Swiss guys were one of most fearfull soldiers a bears from mountains they were really unique power in centre of empires they survived untill those days with much bigger territory as on the begining (1300) do Bosnians have same big country as before? Are they as power as before no but Swiss still are in europe as a nation stll pretty unique nation and everybody whos saying they were nothing at 1300 is not important for me



no future first position maybe a submod ceated by fan

ps:when its done

You are making a mod about the year 1300. It is not important how strong swiss is today. It is about how strong it was then. America did not existed in that year and today they are the nr 1 worldpower. Slovakia today is a stronger country than Bosnia and Slovakia did not even ever existed as an indipendent kingdom.

Bosnia defeated the Hungarian army which entered Bosnia with 8000 horses and not ones but 40 times! There were 40 wars between Bosnia and Hungaria. Hungaria was one of the most powerfull kingdoms but it never concuered Bosnia because of its gold and silver profits and good trade.

The Serbian Tzar Dusan attacked Bosnia with 55.000 man. That is what Orbini, a very famous historian from the 16. century writes. So not 5500 but 55.000, and you can ask serbs at this forum if that is right.

And remember that we are talking about the middle ages and about the roots of states in europe, not about todays situation.

[Mr. Sorrow]

I still do not see your point. Did Bosnia actually conquer something of a significance? It is not the battle provess that makes nations important but mostly their continuing existence and influencing the world.

And Swiss WERE even in 1300s known for their bravery and determination to keep their customs and laws (thus freedom). Do not belittle other nations. Bosnia may have been important as a phoenix who burns brightly for a short time...but that is it. It was already agreed as option...so..

[Bosnian_King]

I still do not see your point. Did Bosnia actually conquer something of a significance? It is not the battle provess that makes nations important but mostly their continuing existence and influencing the world.

And Swiss WERE even in 1300s known for their bravery and determination to keep their customs and laws (thus freedom). Do not belittle other nations. Bosnia may have been important as a phoenix who burns brightly for a short time...but that is it. It was already agreed as option...so..

From the 9 or 10. century till 1180. Bosnia was a state with obligations towards the Hungaian crown. So in that period Bosnia had her own church and ruler and army but it had to pay money to Hungaria. From 1180- 1377. Bosnia was an independent state. In 1377. it declared herself a kingdom and entered open war with Hungaria and conquered 1/5 of Hungaria; in that time one of the most powerfull kingdoms in the world. Till 1530. Bosnia existed as a kingdom but in 1463. the Turks already conquered most of Bosnia.

So Bosnia was not a short burning flame. This are 500 years of history. And exactly when this mod starts Bosnia began to conquer large teritories. I respect Swiss for what they are now but Bosnia is always underestimated in those mods and I hate it. I hate it because I know the history of Bosnia and I am not one of those "child" who play compute games. For me only history is interesting. And if we look to history, Bosnia was much more important in the 14. century than Florence, Swiss etc.

I respect it that they are including Bosnia but the arguments for not including Bosnia in the first 30 factions are not really convincing.

[IVIarkI2I]

From the 9 or 10. century till 1180. Bosnia was a state with obligations towards the Hungaian crown. So in that period Bosnia had her own church and ruler and army but it had to pay money to Hungaria. From 1180- 1377. Bosnia was an independent state. In 1377. it declared herself a kingdom and entered open war with Hungaria and conquered 1/5 of Hungaria; in that time one of the most powerfull kingdoms in the world. Till 1530. Bosnia existed as a kingdom but in 1463. the Turks already conquered most of Bosnia.

So Bosnia was not a short burning flame. This are 500 years of history. And exactly when this mod starts Bosnia began to conquer large teritories. I respect Swiss for what they are now but Bosnia is always underestimated in those mods and I hate it. I hate it because I know the history of Bosnia and I am not one of those "child" who play compute games. For me only history is interesting. And if we look to history, Bosnia was much more important in the 14. century than Florence, Swiss etc.

I respect it that they are including Bosnia but the arguments for not including Bosnia in the first 30 factions are not really convincing.

so you should get use to it

again florence isnt regular is on same place as bosnia

[Horsa]

I respect it that they are including Bosnia but the arguments for not including Bosnia in the first 30 factions are not really convincing.

Nor are the arguments against it.

I agree that Bosnia is a great addition, and a faction that deserves a place. I do think however that your over exaggerating the importance of Bosnia in a Europe wide stage. If its history you want, then you need to look at the WHOLE history Europe at this time. Perhaps your right about Bosnia, perhaps they are more deserving of a place than Florence or Switzerland, but unless you are going to provide evidence from accurate sources, my view remains the same. Florence seems to be powerful at its time than Bosnia, Switzerland... I'm not sure, but they deserve a place just as much as Bosnia.

Really, this debate is not necessary since Bosnia is going to be included. But if you could provide some evidence to support your claims, it would be very good to see.

[NikeBG]

Hungaria; in that time one of the most powerfull kingdoms in the world.

Ehm, my respect to all Hungarians, but... what? You surely mean "Europe", right?

Yes but how to start a smaller mod? That bosnian guy "pacco" he will retire from modding. I do not even play computer games; I am only interested in history. So who can help us with a smaller mod?

From the thousands of Bosnian fans you've already gathered, there surely must be at least a few technically literate ones. Pacco may be a great modder, but he's not the only one.

I fullyknow what Iam saying , Swiss cantons defeated huge load of Habsburgh cavalery (5 000) with 500 militias and levies armed with halberts and pikes. Such huge defeat was like thorn thrown to HREs hearth did Bosnia defeated such big army? Swiss guys were one of most fearfull soldiers a bears from mountains they were really unique power in centre of empires they survived untill those days with much bigger territory as on the begining (1300) do Bosnians have same big country as before? Are they as power as before no but Swiss still are in europe as a nation stll pretty unique nation and everybody whos saying they were nothing at 1300 is not important for me

1. I must first say that I have next to no knowledge on Swiss (or Central European) history whatsoever. But can you give me some more information of the Swiss battle prowess from 1300, some sources that claim they were famous in all of (Western) Europe? A Wiki-link would suffice for the time being too. I'm interested to hear more about these "hidden lions", if I may call them so (I've only read one article about their pike formations, but for a later era)...
2. I hope the aforementioned (by Mr. Sorrow) expansionism "requirement" isn't a requirement, because I've personally never heard of the Swiss conquering anything of significance. Of course, as I said, I also know next to nothing about them, especially for the 14th century.
3. Who has what power now or a few centuries ago is, or at least should be, of no importance whatsoever. At least concerning the mod. Power comes and goes and countries change. Just as England was nothing more than a backwater in the Dark Ages, rose to being one of the greatest empires during the British Commonwealth and is now yet again just a shadow of its former glory, so have many other countries rose and fell throughout history. It's just the natural life of states.
4. I can't speak how unique Switzerland was and is (heck, I don't even find their German to be as incomprehensible as the Germans say), but I have to point out that Bosnia was, IMO, one of the most unique nations of that time. Especially in terms of religion - I'd place it right after Lithuania or maybe even equal to it. Not to mention its location on the border between East and West, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy and their respective cultures. And to all that add the Bogomils and the Bosnian Church itself - certainly one of the most unique religious features in all of Europe at that time.

[pacco]

@Bosnian_King

For the last time I´ll tell you: DON´T USE MY NAME FOR SOME OF YOUR IDEAS!!! What is your problem?!
If you want to see Bosnia in some M2TW mod create your own mod.

That bosnian guy "pacco" he will retire from modding.

No, I´ll not!

[IVIarkI2I]

@Nike BG, @ Bosnian King

There's one battle they entered to military history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Morgarten

more

http://history-switzerland.geschicht...racy-1291.html