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Thread: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

  1. #6541
    Flinn's Avatar oh man.. I did it again!
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    And this proposal was designed, in part, to increase interest and participation, thus saving the Curia.
    I never saw it that way, to be honest. I think Hader's idea was to make it more efficient rather than more interesting, but as a side effect this could possibly increase interest as well, that's granted (a lot of people was complaining about inefficiency of the Curia's bureaucracy, for instance), but once again it's not a set of rules that will change the trend, that's why, again, I told that maybe we acted too late.. I honestly don't know, only time will tell.

    However, I'm sure Hader will post another Curial report anytime in the future, so certainly we will get some sort of news in any case
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  2. #6542
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    But it was explained in that way.. I can't remember any argument being over efficiency and if it were, I dare say this place has seen more efficient times.

  3. #6543
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I can only post for myself my friend, I personally never see it as "let's make the Curia more entertaining"

    as per the efficiency issue, the Curia was never efficient, in my book, at least compared to the Staff or to my RL experience
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  4. #6544
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I voted with my feet when it came to order 66. It didn't appeal to me at all and I suspect I was not the only one feeling that way in the rather small group that was actually still (somewhat) active in the Curia. However, I also did not want to oppose the proposal publicly, or vote against it as I thought it should be given a chance to become successful. It doesn't seem to yet, but perhaps that changes for the good after all. Having said that, in the current circumstances, any proposal to revive the Curia would face a steep uphill battle to succeed.

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  5. #6545
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Having seen my share of proposals I have come to the conclusion that the constant stream of proposals to amend this or that section of the dreadfully convoluted constitution was the real thing keeping the Curia alive. Originally it was my hope that once capacities were freed from having to debate stupid pseudo-legal arguments over subclauses and implied meanings people would direct their energies towards more productive endeavours. However, I have to acknowledge that I was wrong, as the number of proposals and activity dropped sharply once we had revised and condensed the constitution, removing the need to alter half a sentence every other week.

    The second leg the Curia seems to have stood on was borderline ToS breaking bickering. Order 66 did away with that and, lo and behold, the Curia is as alive as a forgotten graveyard except for the odd award nomination.

    What condensing the constitution and order 66 did was lay bare what remains of the Curia once you remove the self-referential bureaucracy and the bickering. Unfortunately not much else of substance seems to have been there. Those deserving awards may be better served by a different process perhaps.
    Last edited by Iskar; July 25, 2019 at 06:30 PM.
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  6. #6546
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    While I agree in general terms with both Vet and Isky, I have to say as well that in the past what drove away A LOT of people from the Curia was exactly its bureaucratic nature, which resulted to be boring/annoying to many. I might be biased I know, I never served in the Curia as an officer, so my personal stance on the whole matter might be missing some points.. however my main concern was that overall the Curia was not serving the site well, in terms of community spirit and such. IMO those who served in it during the last 3-4 years really did a miracle to keep it alive, but the issue remained in any case.. I saw Order 66 as an attempt to make it simpler and more functional, in the hope that it would attract more people.. apparently it is not so up to today, and mostly because there are very little new citizens.. simply, those who weren't interested before aren't so even now
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  7. #6547
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Without going into the bureaucratic stuff and all those other things Iskar and Flinn are talking about. The way I see it, and I invite anyone to disagree with me on it. Is that 66 did nothing but alienate that small group of active curialists Vet is referring too. That and during the summer there's not been much activity since I can remember.

  8. #6548
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I fail to see what was so bad about Order 66. All it said was that Citizens should have to abide by the same rules as everyone else, and that every user on TWC should have the opportunity to provide input on proposals.
    The Curia was dead as beforehand, the Curia remains dead as .




  9. #6549
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I appreciate everyone's honesty and I'm glad we can talk about this a bit more now that emotions have cooled off a bit since the vote. I think, vis a vis bureaucracy and bickering, it highlights that difference in philosophy. The bureaucracy and bickering was essentially all that was left after many years of declining activity and proposals to strip away Curial functions; it stands to reason I guess that if we got rid of that, there would be nothing left. I don't wish to speak on behalf of everyone who voted against Order 66, but at least from my own perspective - as tedious, abrasive and destructive as it was - it was at least a platform to build on. It wasn't great and I know for a fact that it did drive people away, but I always felt it would be easier to fix something broken than to build something new. With the benefit of hindsight, I certainly know I could have done a lot more - talked to more people, made more proposals, taken more initiative to change things - instead of just getting on my soapbox from time to time, but I didn't know something like Order 66 was on the horizon, nor did I think it would actually pass once it came to vote. Whilst I am still bitter about Order 66, a lot of that bitterness I think stems from the fact I didn't do more earlier to try and prevent it. I suppose it became too easy to get lost in that bickering and bureaucracy sometimes, which I guess, in a roundabout way, is why I would defend it. If it could at least draw some people in and give them a structure to work with, then I always felt there was at least some potential to improve it. Yes, we did have many years of inane circular arguments without achieving anything, so I understand why people were disillusioned with the Curia, but, at least in my mind, so long as that remained, there was also still always hope that it could be something more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    I fail to see what was so bad about Order 66. All it said was that Citizens should have to abide by the same rules as everyone else, and that every user on TWC should have the opportunity to provide input on proposals.
    The Curia was dead as beforehand, the Curia remains dead as .
    To be honest, there was nothing really heinously bad about Order 66 in and of itself, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. It certainly alienated those of us who had opposed it, as Brew said, and effectively forced us out of the Curia, although to be honest I'm not entirely sure why those who supported it haven't done more since. Any major follow up proposal in the same vein would quite likely have passed without much trouble, given that anyone who could have opposed it would have been gone. For the first time in perhaps many years, you had a Curia actually united on something. If you actually wanted to tear everything down and build something from the ground up, this was a golden opportunity. That's the reason I was curious as to what the plan was.

  10. #6550
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I have to agree that the order 66 could be the base for a further overhaul of the Curia, the question now is: who should be doing that? The Curia or the Hex?

    I think I need to expand on a point: Hader is indeed a Hexer, but his order 66 proposal was discussed, amended, supported and voted according to the rules of the Curia, nothing more, nothing less. The feeling that I have now is that some (many probably) think like "hey Hex has come in and changed the Curia, now it's up to them (Hader) to move on with it" which is not really the case (and that's why I also told that it's not unlikely that Hader will remit the Consul role, though this is jut my opinion of course).

    So the point is: nothing has really changed with regards of the basic functioning of the Curia, Citizens can still come and make proposals/amendments, included the "annulment" or anyways the modification of the Order 66; The Curia is still in the hands of Citizens and they can still define a different course for it (or in case work on following up with the Order 66). While it's undeniable that some if not all the last active curialists have been alienated by it, I really don't get why this happened and I would be glad to listen to anyone who would lay down few lines to explain me why. My doubts are genuine.
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  11. #6551
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    For my part, the Order 66 has nothing to do with my almost full inactivity here.
    What disappoints me the most is that the Curia just proposes, changes, updates curial things and just for the Curia. Where's the benefit for the site? I can't see it. As my free time is getting low these days, I've chosen to focuse more on my other staff duties and modding stuff rather than in the Curia. Easy choice actually tbh.
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  12. #6552
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    I really don't get why this happened and I would be glad to listen to anyone who would lay down few lines to explain me why. My doubts are genuine.
    I never expected HEX to come in and save the day, just because 66 was proposed by Hader. As for the proposal itself, getting rid of some bureaucracy in the Curia in a sensible way would always get my support. The new "management structure" does not appeal to me at all however, which is one of the reasons I did not take part in the 66 vote. Of course I did participate in the most recent Magistrate election, but that was because there were very few candidates and nothing really had changed about that particular function and I hadn't been a Magistrate before.

    But it's not just because of order 66 that my interest in the Curia dwindled over time. As there were ever less people participating, the risk of the Curia being dominated by a handful of very active members became ever greater. I was not comfortable with that, perhaps others too. I'm not suggesting that anybody was purposely trying to dominate the Curia though, a vacuum always attracts something to fill it.

    And probably the biggest reason why I have no faith in any proposal that tries to "resurrect" the Curia to something akin to what it had been quite a few years ago, is because I don't think it will work. When the Curia was thriving, things were very different from how they are now. There was far less competition from other social platforms. Now Steam, Facebook, Reddit and all those others are much more prominent. I'm not very active on any social platform and thus are quite often to be found here, but I'm not at all typical in that regard, I believe. This of course is true for the whole site, including the Curia, but still a factor of importance.

    And then there is the Staff that basically (under the guidance of the Hex folks) runs this whole site, which it not always has done. I think that is a good thing, but it does take away much of what the Curia could be involved with. To be honest, the chance of something getting finished when it's done by the staff branch is much bigger IMO than when it is up to the Curia to deliver.

    I have stated a few times before what I think the Curia could still do successfully, but having it turned into what is basically an award committee with a few other minor activities going on, seems to be too big a leap for most that are still interested in what happens with the Curia. Well, it was the last time I suggested it if I recall correctly.


    I used "Curia" a lot in the above text. That was strictly for convenience. I'm not even sure what it stands for. All the Citizens perhaps, even when the great majority of them is never active in the Curia forum at all?

    Or maybe it's just the people who (occasionally) are active in that forum, even though they can hardly be qualified as a homogeneous group. More often than not, "the Curia" as a whole is criticised in the commentary thread, when it actually is about something one, or only a few members have stated.
    Last edited by Veteraan; July 28, 2019 at 02:29 PM.

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  13. #6553

    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    In my eyes, Curia is eternally crippled by its dedication to Democratic decision making. I have seen very little accomplished since I became a Citizen. Many people seem dissatisfied, but in my opinion, that is a permanent ailment of all democratic institutions.

    Which is why there should be a vote for a dictator every 3 months, who can remake the Curia into their image.

  14. #6554

    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    In my eyes, Curia is eternally crippled by its dedication to Democratic decision making. I have seen very little accomplished since I became a Citizen. Many people seem dissatisfied, but in my opinion, that is a permanent ailment of all democratic institutions.

    Which is why there should be a vote for a dictator every 3 months, who can remake the Curia into their image.
    Saving this quote.

  15. #6555
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quite the flurry of posts here now

    To respond generally though, while I am not just throwing the entirety of Order 66 at the Curia and then leaving it to its own designs, it's also not something I can or should be entirely responsible for (not in terms of just creating and championing it, but it the next steps as well). Some of what is meant to come next is just going to come from observing what may be the next best step for part A or part B, and not all of it has to come from me, no one is stopping any citizen from getting the ball rolling on new initiatives and other things to follow up on the bulky part of the overhaul. I have ideas and they are not quite coming to fruition yet either, unfortunately, but no one else should feel alienated from other suggestions either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post

    Which is why there should be a vote for a dictator every 3 months, who can remake the Curia into their image.
    I fail to see how that would do anything substantial except add back more of the dramatic intrigue of the old Curia.

  16. #6556

    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    I fail to see how that would do anything substantial except add back more of the dramatic intrigue of the old Curia.
    You could get things done. There's always someone unhappy. Can't say that there hasn't been drama anyway.

  17. #6557
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I have been immensely busy with changing jobs, 11 month old and visiting family friends, so having on the gist of the discussion,...

    Order 66 is not the cause, but an effect. The driving force for activity is incentive. There is little or no incentive. Moreover, Content has long migrated to youtube, CA has also migrated to other mediums. and the site did too little too late to stop the outflow of mods on the site. With all of the negatives, there is still hope. The site grew as a discussion forum, and not necessarily because of the presence of mods and content. TWC thrived on the social media like atmosphere and investment through the awarding of bling. So Order 66 did not usher this era, it is an effect of it.

    As I said awhile ago, I am done with trying to save TWC. I will certainly help, but I am tired of being everyone's whipping boy on the matter.
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  18. #6558

    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Your announcement seems a little self contradicting.

  19. #6559
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Pessimists like to think of themselves as realists. This group may refer to optimists as idealist or dreamers. Its all perspective. Besides, I enjoy a good fight even if it is futile. As a former coach use to say, if do not believe you can win, then get off the field you are in the way of victory.
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  20. #6560
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I thought only citizens, and hex of course, could post in the Curia, but how could Ponti post in the Consul debate thread when he isn't a citizen anymore unless there is something I'm not aware of.
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