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Thread: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

  1. #7041
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    See on one hand I want to argue it’s very easy not to get infractions but on the other hand I’ve never been engaged enough to reach the level of outright hatred some of the more active members/citizens have for each other. How am I to judge if every single infraction/moderator activity a user has ever had has been justified?

    Clearly there’s a lot of personal bias/influence in at least some reports issued against specific users, you’d have to be lying to yourself to deny that. If a user feels that their infraction is just the result of numerous frivolous accusations likely by other users with an axe to grind, with some slipping through the appeals process, let them make all their interactions public record so that the voters can decide if these transgressions are worth removing their candidacy
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  2. #7042
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    I'm afraid as long as this includes candidates for the office of Magistrate, which means serving on the Tribunal to assess ToS violations, we're not going to entertain users with recent ToS violations themselves as anywhere near eligible. Anyone judging other people's ToS violations must be completely above doubt themselves.
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  3. #7043
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    I mean aren’t you guys literally not doing appeals right now? So if I was someone running for a position I could theoretically report my possible opponents frivolously until something kind of sticks then just remove them from the running indefinitely because they have no actual option to appeal at the moment? That sounds completely ed to me.
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  4. #7044

    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I'm afraid as long as this includes candidates for the office of Magistrate, which means serving on the Tribunal to assess ToS violations, we're not going to entertain users with recent ToS violations themselves as anywhere near eligible. Anyone judging other people's ToS violations must be completely above doubt themselves.
    Do tribunes have the ability to reject an elected magistrate? Iskar has gone power mad!! The tyranny of the tribunal has begun, men, we must man the barricades. Besides, your reasoning is waaaaay off. People with infractions, especially overturned infractions, have experience navigating the termsofservice justice system. It should be considered part of their resume, and those who haven't found themselves on the other end of grave injustice should consider themselves lucky to have someone experienced give their opinion. It begs the question, if someone hasn't received an infraction, are they the right choice to serve on the tribunal??? This warrants deep thought, and the consideration of our finest philosophers.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; May 22, 2020 at 02:09 PM.

  5. #7045
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Do tribunes have the ability to reject an elected magistrate? Iskar has gone power mad!! The tyranny of the tribunal has begun, men, we must man the barricades. Besides, your reasoning is waaaaay off. People with infractions, especially overturned infractions, have experience navigating the termsofservice justice system. It should be considered part of their resume, and those who haven't found themselves on the other end of grave injustice should consider themselves lucky to have someone experienced give their opinion. It begs the question, if someone hasn't received an infraction, are they the right choice to serve on the tribunal??? This warrants deep thought, and the consideration of our finest philosophers.
    I've bolded the relevant adjective:
    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I'm afraid as long as this includes candidates for the office of Magistrate, which means serving on the Tribunal to assess ToS violations, we're not going to entertain users with recent ToS violations themselves as anywhere near eligible. Anyone judging other people's ToS violations must be completely above doubt themselves.
    Also, the Tribunes can unanimously remove a Magistrate from office. That is a pretty sharp sword to wield, though, and none I have seen used so far.

    What I am getting at is: The Tribunal is a crossroads between the Curia-world and the Staff-world, but exists, frankly, by the grace of the administration/site owner alone. That the citizenry can elect judges to serve on that Tribunal is, if you think about it, a double concession by the site owner - not only are they having their Moderation staff checked by the Tribunal, they are also having their appointed Tribunes checked by the Magistrates. In turn, it is understandable that Magistrates must satisfy certain minimum requirements and not having an active infraction in the past six months is, arguably, a pretty low bar which I am going to maintain while I am Tribune. That's as far as the day-to-day politics of the Tribunal goes for which I am responsible, Hex may override me of course anytime.


    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior
    I mean aren’t you guys literally not doing appeals right now? So if I was someone running for a position I could theoretically report my possible opponents frivolously until something kind of sticks then just remove them from the running indefinitely because they have no actual option to appeal at the moment? That sounds completely ed to me.
    That argument presumes Moderation is just a random number generator that will spit out an infraction eventually if you just throw enough reports at them - which is quite the misconception. If you start spamming unfounded reports Moderation will in time probably just have a word with you what it is all about. (And if one of your reports is not unfounded - well, the malice of the accuser does not invalidate the accusation necessarily.)
    Last edited by Iskar; May 22, 2020 at 03:06 PM. Reason: six, not three, still a low bar
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  6. #7046

    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I've bolded the relevant adjective:


    Also, the Tribunes can unanimously remove a Magistrate from office.

    What I am getting at is: The Tribunal is a crossroads between the Curia-world and the Staff-world, but exists, frankly, by the grace of the administration/site owner alone. That the citizenry can elect judges to serve on that Tribunal is, if you think about, a double concession by the site owner - not only are they having their Moderation staff checked by the Tribunal, they are also having their appointed Tribunes checked by the Magistrates. In turn, it is understandable that Magistrates must satisfy certain minimum requirements and not having an active infraction in the past three months is, arguably, a pretty low bar which I am going to maintain while I am Tribune. That's as far as the day-to-day politics of the Tribunal goes for which I am responsible, Hex may override me of course anytime.
    Well that's a reasonable response, and quite convincing. I'll have to put in a bid for TWC, then effect change from the top down. The democratic reforms will be sweeping of course, but I will assure the independence of the judiciary. Infractions will be abolished in favor of scarlet letters which guilty members must display in their signatures.

  7. #7047
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    That argument presumes Moderation is just a random number generator that will spit out an infraction eventually if you just throw enough reports at them - which is quite the misconception. If you start spamming unfounded reports Moderation will in time probably just have a word with you what it is all about. (And if one of your reports is not unfounded - well, the malice of the accuser does not invalidate the accusation necessarily.)
    You're operating on the false premise that moderators on TWC are unbiased. A couple weeks, let alone about a decade as most of us in this thread have, at TWC will show how blatantly untrue that is. If the moderator in question has a bias against the user, or is simply being too frenzied in carrying out their duties then you can end up with false positives. That’s literally the point of having an appeals system, the ability for moderators to carry out injustice.

    So if you’re operating under a system that is no longer giving out appeals for several weeks and leaving the users in question in purgatory, it’s an obvious miscarriage of justice and abuse of the system/breaking the constitution to drop punishments on users from moderators. To explain to you more simply as I’m sure you would appreciate: “If moderators are police, the judges are akin to trial judges in a courtroom. Do you think it’s just to hold prisoners captive indefinitely without an appeal due to ‘not having any judges at the moment’”?

    You can’t give indefinite punishments, one of which is so obviously frivolous that I’m shocked your moderators would actually go through with it, then tell the users who have already been waiting two weeks you have no idea when they’ll get their day in court and have them locked out of certain site functions for however long it takes you to figure your own out. At least push back the punishments to be discussed once you fill the position. Why, if I was a little higher ranked on TWC I would fight for it myself on their behalf but apparently you guys don’t actually have any judges to lobby to, and maybe doing so would catch me some frivolous indefinite charges of my own.
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  8. #7048
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    This is sliding into Moderation/Tribunal commentary. Maybe we should get back to the actual proposal. (Feel free to copy your post over to the commentary, of course.)

    Point being, in my opinion the "no infractions" part is way more important for Magistrates than the "time as a citizen" part. I'd be fine with "has been site member for six months and is citizen" instead of "three months a citzen" for Magistrates, as that which counts is experience with the ToS, not with the Curia. For the other offices that does not hold of course, as experience with the Curia is crucial for the Consul and the Praefects that deal with the Curia itself.
    Last edited by Iskar; May 22, 2020 at 03:11 PM.
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  9. #7049

    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    You've already proclaimed yourself above even the theoretical view of the Curia, which is in itself halfway to a veto of any change. Even if the Curia, with full disclosure of a citizen's record, elected someone you disagreed with, they would be dismissed. I'd argue it is inappropriate for you to use your position as a way to leverage what it is the Curia can or cannot do. It seems panicky and moralizing to immediately just threaten a constructive veto than to allow discussion to play out. Also, nobody here is "taking sides" or not with staff except you. I've got little to nothing against them besides the fact my appeal is going to take a while and limit my ability to larp here.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; May 22, 2020 at 03:18 PM.

  10. #7050
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    I did as you asked but I also think this issue clearly is linked to Pontifex’s amendment attempts to Akar’s proposal. If the moderation/tribunal was working effectively then Pontifex’s proposal would be moot; we would be able to objectively say that all current ToS violations are valid and thus disqualify users from running for Curial Office. Given that there are current appeals that are currently on hold, there is absolutely no reason an appealing citizen who has not been given the opportunity to have their case overlooked should be handled as a convicted ToS breaker. By doing so people in power, such as yourself Iskar, are allowed to remove interested parties from running for office in the near future despite the fact that their case was likely one to be overturned.

    The basis of Pontifex’s changes and desires for Akar’s proposal is literally completely rooted in an outright failure by the moderation/tribunal to treat him as a normal citizen for weeks at a time when if the situation was cleared up we could outright say he is or isn’t deserving of running for Curial office. Until the complete failure to find tribunal judges is resolved Pontifex’s proposal holds water.
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  11. #7051
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    People in power such as myself?

    Take a step back from the republic roleplay.

    This is an internet forum where I volunteer to spend my time reviewing moderation interactions. (Neither is a given on a privately owned website, mind you.) It would be ridiculous to treat this leisure time activity as so significant that it was about power, interested parties, or intrigues for offices. I don't know, maybe you're larping there, but I'm not, and I think roleplay belongs in the roleplaying section.

    Furthermore, if the "people in power" actually wanted to meddle with the Curial offices they would not need to construe such an unlikely and elaborate plot of infractions coinciding with lack of Tribunal judges. "They" (our hexagonal lizard overlords) could just appeal to this line from the Constitution
    Quote Originally Posted by Constitution, Section II, Article II
    The Administration may veto any applicant.
    and be done with it.

    Can we now please get back to Akar's proposal?
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  12. #7052
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial Officer Requirements

    The facts are this:

    1) Ponti has an infraction/warning

    2) The constitution says you cannot have an infraction or warning for 3 months.

    3) Consequently, Ponti cannot run.

    4) There is no conspiracy.


    If you want to discuss this further, please start your own thread. This thread is for the discussion of my proposal and not about baseless conspiracymongering.

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  13. #7053

    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I will post this here to keep a proposal clean...

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    I did as you asked but I also think this issue clearly is linked to Pontifex’s amendment attempts to Akar’s proposal. If the moderation/tribunal was working effectively then Pontifex’s proposal would be moot; we would be able to objectively say that all current ToS violations are valid and thus disqualify users from running for Curial Office. Given that there are current appeals that are currently on hold, there is absolutely no reason an appealing citizen who has not been given the opportunity to have their case overlooked should be handled as a convicted ToS breaker. By doing so people in power, such as yourself Iskar, are allowed to remove interested parties from running for office in the near future despite the fact that their case was likely one to be overturned.

    The basis of Pontifex’s changes and desires for Akar’s proposal is literally completely rooted in an outright failure by the moderation/tribunal to treat him as a normal citizen for weeks at a time when if the situation was cleared up we could outright say he is or isn’t deserving of running for Curial office. Until the complete failure to find tribunal judges is resolved Pontifex’s proposal holds water.
    This is a false assumption. If you are given a warning, you are a "ToS breaker." You are free to appeal, but it doesn't put the warning on hold. The Tribunal is not a trial. it is an appeal. So, no presumed innocent until proven guilty. You are guilty unless the Tribunal says otherwise.
    Last edited by PikeStance; May 23, 2020 at 01:26 AM.
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  14. #7054
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    That's gonna be difficult for ggggtotalwarrior to answer you here. He's not a citizen. The CCT would have been a better place imo
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  15. #7055
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    That's gonna be difficult for ggggtotalwarrior to answer you here. He's not a citizen. The CCT would have been a better place imo
    Yeah, I hope Flinn or any hex notice this and move Pike's post to the CCT.
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  16. #7056

    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I was on autopilot. LOL, fixed.
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  17. #7057
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    People in power such as myself?

    Take a step back from the republic roleplay.

    This is an internet forum where I volunteer to spend my time reviewing moderation interactions. (Neither is a given on a privately owned website, mind you.) It would be ridiculous to treat this leisure time activity as so significant that it was about power, interested parties, or intrigues for offices. I don't know, maybe you're larping there, but I'm not, and I think roleplay belongs in the roleplaying section.

    Furthermore, if the "people in power" actually wanted to meddle with the Curial offices they would not need to construe such an unlikely and elaborate plot of infractions coinciding with lack of Tribunal judges. "They" (our hexagonal lizard overlords) could just appeal to this line from the Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Constitution, Section II, Article II
    The Administration may veto any applicant.
    and be done with it.
    Standing ovation

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  18. #7058
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    It seems some people here don't think I am suitable for the Praefect position, but that's okay as I only volunteer when no one seemed interested.
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  19. #7059
    Imperator Majora's Avatar What's under your mask?
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Better times saw similarly polar responses. We'll see if the outcome is ultimately positive.

  20. #7060
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Time to prove them wrong I say, Leo

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