[Discussion] Curia future

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

To catch anyone up to speed who's wondering why the Curia has been popping off lately: the now-former Consul, Gaius Baltar, was removed by the Hexagon Council for improper use of local moderation powers and attempting to use his position to force untenable changes on the Curia. This was the original announcement:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Due to misuse of his moderation powers, Gaius Baltar has been removed from the Consulship. He has also been banned for two years from holding any Curial position (including that of the Magistrate). Snap elections have been announced, so, if you feel confident, feel free to apply.

Message posted to the Consul (GB disclosed it immediately after reception):

Hi Gaius Baltar,


Following the incident I mentioned previously and taking into consideration your responses and those of mishkin, the Administration decided to remove you from the Consulship. You have also been banned from holding any Curial position for two years. Disliking some members is perfectly fine and normal, but moderation powers also bear a lot of responsibility. The Hexagon Council and especially its moderation branch are responsible for all the local and global moderators behaving responsibly and justly. New elections have been declared, but I am afraid that you cannot participate, due to the aforementioned ban.

A more full explanation of events that came later,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I note that in both cases available / required Constitutional procedures (resp. VonC and Ostrakon) weren't followed. Why?

The former Consul misused his local moderation powers, which lies under the responsibility of the Hexagon Council and especially its moderation branch, similarly to every other local moderator, from the modding section to the foreign language discussion. Even if this normal procedure was not followed, a VonC could not practically proceed, as the Consul was likely to sabotage the vote. He did in fact delete the two threads about the upcoming elections to determine his successor. Anyway, this is not an unprecedented case, as members holding Curator/Consul privileges have been stripped of them by the Hexagon Council, like in the example of Antwerpen. The Curia is still free to pursue the issue further if it so wishes, by issuing an Ostracon against Gaius Baltar.

If you had any evidence of abuse of moderation you would have presented it already.

I'll take this as a permission to disclose what happened.

It all started in a Prothalamos thread, when two comments made by the same user, who is not a citizen, but still allowed to post in the Prothalamos, were deleted by the Consul for supposedly being off-topic.

I don't know what sense it makes to publish files that were decided to be private and that may be of interest to very few people. Why take the risk. And if I were you, I wouldn't talk about unilateral actions that impact the activity (very past or slightly recent) of other users. If I see a discussion that I have been in as protagonist (in example a censure against me) and I have decided to make it private, I will burn your house down. House of Baltar I mean.

Mate relax and open and close votes/debates. Don't do things for the sake of doing something

The member asked repeatedly the Consul to clarify why the comments were removed, in private and visitor messages:

Hi, have you deleted a message of mine on the prothalamos today or was it some kind of error on the site? (To respond to visitor messages you have to click "view conversation").

Hello? Could you answer me?

It is nothing serious if you decided to delete that post and of course it is nothing special that due to a system failure my message did not appear (although I would swear that the message appeared). What is a problem is that you do not want to answer the very simple question that I asked you here.

The Consul never replied. Instead, he deleted the visitor messages with the reasoning "double post" and asked me to ban the member in question from the Prothalamos:

I am requesting a ban of redacted from the Prothalamus. His interactions there can be described as combative and he seems to have an ongoing rant about the usefulness of the Curia and its officers. The best description of his behavior would be "Off Topic".

Citizens who post in the Prothalamus are held to a higher standard of behavior and redacted, who is not a citizen, falls far from those standards.

Thanks for your help,

Gaius Baltar

The request was denied and, when asked to explain his behaviour, Gaius Baltar responded in the following manner:

Hi Gaius Baltar,

We received a message from redated, complaining about your behaviour as a Curator. He claims that you deleted his messages in the most recent thread in the Prothalamos and repeatedly refused to elaborate, when he asked you for clarification. We checked a bit and we indeed confirmed that two comments from redacted were deleted, as well as several visitor messages on your profile. We did not understand why these two posts were removed, but this lies within your discretion. However, refusing to respond to legitimate requests about your moderation activities is a much more serious issue with grave implications for any forum, not just the Curia, moderated by a local moderator. Can you please explain why you deleted these two messages and, more importantly, whether and, if yes, why you did not reply to redacted's questions?

Best regards,
Abdülmecid

Did you read my previous message on this matter?

I will repeat my request for a forum ban for redacted from the Prothalamus.

Actually, I noticed that the latest version of the Constitution posted by Flinn has actually removed the wording that once allowed non-citizens access to the Prothalamus.

Based on this I request the following;

1. Move the Prothalamus back into the Curia.

2. Remove all non-citizen access to the Prothalamus.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Gaius Baltar - Consul

It was therefore decided that Gaius Baltar had to be removed from the Consulship for misusing his moderator powers by deleting messages he disagreed with, refusing to explain his actions and trying to goad moderation into banning the members he disliked and restraining the Prothalamos to citizens-only.

And finally my rationale for supporting the intervention (including over the traditional VONC that was suggested)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

@Abdulmecid and DFK

I have to say I am not convinced that at the time of Gaius' dismissal, there was much reason to assume he would sabotage a VoNC. While I understand that you could follow moderation rules instead, dispensing with a constitutional process when it could have been followed does rather undermine the constitution.

Using a VONC was an idea and I'm sympathetic to it being preferred over executive intervention. However in the end the issue in my mind is this, and this is why I (speaking for myself) elected for intervention over using the procedure. To do it the simple way.

The curia has a history of failing on all fronts for disciplining misbehavior. Even now after the evidence was posted there is a post not far from yours which indicate abuse of power as described is inadequate for a vonc. Looking at recent elections participtation has been as low as 3 and as high as 10. This could be up to a third of available voters deciding abuse of power is a-okay and another post from earlier seems sympathetic to this attitude so I am not confident in the Curia necessarily holding itself accountable.

This low participation & engagement does not even represent a meaningful chunk of the traffic we still get day to day. As of posting citizens match non-citizens in that one hex vonc thread when not counting hex. So the idea anything that goes on here even represents the site is off the table as well. This might not be your point but just to cover some of the hyperbole that's been seen here.

The constitution, besides not covering a lot of things anymore including the ever present ability of Hex to intervene as needed, seems inadequate to deal with a situation where the evidence and specifics can only be disclosed if the party negatively affected by their disclosure consents. The constitution doesn't adequately handle this situation in writing and the body gives no confidence in practice. Could a vonc have been employed perhaps, but it was going to be a circus regardless so the bandaid is ripped off. And while you may not be persuaded that at the time Gaius might have intervened I think it's pretty clear from the post-intervention fuss that he's perfectly happy to act however he wants to get his way. Hindsight vindicates.

I'm fine with letting the Curia its traditional thing if it can manage to this day and age. I don't like meddling, I'd rather it do what little it can do with autonomy and support those efforts as I can manage. Give awards, prop up the Tribunal, spin wheels a bit for old time's sake. Even the folks in red are in little position to perform a top-down reform so sustaining what we've got is about all we've got. Even the coming of GED would be a tall order given the state of things.

But if the Curia elects candidates who actively wish to override what's left of its own legacy and suppresses legitimate commentary then I have no issue with putting on the brakes and having it try again. I know this might damage the veneer the curia has been clinging to in all this but I'd rather we just be straight about it. I'm open to further discussion what form the curia can really take at this point as it's only more barren and scraping lower by the day.

To clear it up, GB has made multiple mentions of TOS violations. These are arbitrary things he percieves as violating the TOS, such as administrators posting in the Curia or calling any replies he disagrees with harassment. Nothing to do with notes, infractions etc. He need but deny it and I can show my work on this.

Since no censors were appointed and the Consul is out, the curia is currently being run by Hex. Its procedures will continue to function such as they are, if something requires the Consul you can send the inquiry to myself or Abdul. However this should be a temporary state. An election is available if someone wants to take the mantle. It will remain open until there is a candidate or a Decision is made. And that is what this discussion is for.

I think it's been clear for some time that the Curia hasn't really been functioning. As per my rationale in the second spoiler, there have not been awards, patronages, even the wheel spinning has been lackluster and the drama ain't what it used to be. I think we're at a point where the Curia needs to sit down and do something different. I believe this something different is to massively simplify and hopefully be able to do its thing without the bureaucracy, the lengthy procedures, the gimmicks. We're only a handful of interested people anyway so might as well keep it simple in a way we'll actually use in our twilight years on TWC.

This is where I suggest the Curia goes:
- keep awards and citizenship*
- *modify citizenship to be simpler criteria. If not formally then informally using existing requirements: hit the minimums, mention 1-2 good things that have demonstrated stake in the site. Done. Full-fledge applications are not doing us well and too many people out of the narrow margin we have left are going unrecognized. Basically commit to a more universal badge for those who've invested and give them full stake in the things that run through here. Take inspiration from the old days (a bit more introduction perhaps), including:
- Greatly simplify votes. We don't need curia main, two voting fora, a totally split off discussion fora for some things like here. Traffic is low enough. Here's my radical suggestion: retire the proth, curia vote, the citizen spot, convert curia main to act like the proth, add polls when needed and do it all simply. Citizens still retain exclusive voting right but anyone can discuss and even nominate. Symposium could be retained for citizen exclusive stuff if we feel it's still needed.
- Simplify consul to an LM exclusively to add votes/manage tags and records. Put an end to terms: elect someone, they do it until they feel they don't want to or go inactive at which point the curia can vote for another one. A vote can be made for two if need be, or whatever. Just one badge for this purpose if any. All moderation goes to site moderation + administration: there will be no grounds for the consul to decide to remove posts because they feel something is off topic or it offends them or the act fits what may be a warped idea of a procedure we're doing away with anyway. An administrator keeps an eye on things from time to time.
- End ostrakon and vonc. Both are circuses that have not been used properly in a long time. Ostrakon can be totally replaced by getting yourself booted through moderation actions as happens now, vonc for office comes in calling for a new election and that getting traction.
- While the tribunal itself needs to be rethought and so stuff like magistrate may not last indefinitely if the Tribunal meets the reaper, I imagine it can be handled similarly to the LM process of above. Nominate for fresh blood from time to time especially if the member goes inactive, put a poll in the thread if it hits off with +3 support, go from there.

Imo these are important changes to ensure what's left of the curia can still attract function in this day and age. The floor is open for comment and adjustments of course, I recommend we iron something out and proceed with a follow up decision that remaining voters can bite on and then get it done before we get bored and let the place go for another however many months. Hex won't just force a change through if nothing comes of this but I promise you that things don't get prettier from here and I hope we can get an amicable result. I can offer a proper amendment structure depending how well these thoughts go.

[Sir Adrian]

I agree with most up to this point

- Simplify consul to an LM exclusively to add votes/manage tags and records. Put an end to terms: elect someone, they do it until they feel they don't want to or go inactive at which point the curia can vote for another one. A vote can be made for two if need be, or whatever. Just one badge for this purpose if any. All moderation goes to site moderation + administration: there will be no grounds for the consul to decide to remove posts because they feel something is off topic or it offends them or the act fits what may be a warped idea of a procedure we're doing away with anyway. An administrator keeps an eye on things from time to time.

This is a decisive no go for me. The entire point of the Curia was to be a place where users who are proven to be able to handle a mature conversation get to let their hair down without the ever present eye of moderation watching everything. The moment site moderation, which has consistently decreased in quality over the last few years, starts running the place you might as well end the Curia permanently.

[Narf]

A lot of the removal of elected powers I disagree with, simplyfying votes I agree with, the tribunal needs to be allowed to mediate more often, not less, I like the idea of elected positions staying longer, one serve as long as one have steam and then maybe once a year you can reapply along with others that think they could do the job well. There should be a thread called Torchbearer or something where consuls and other elected positions can say "I want to pass the torch" Then when someone shows interest votes can be established.

I think theres a beauty to the patronization, I was proud when Inkie was made a Citizen, that dosnt mean i dont see merit in what you say, a great way to contribute to the site lie in the governance of it, that is barred by the citizenship. I know a lot of this is aabout simplification but I'd rather argue for a badge thats given after an introduction and statement of intent(Kept so long one is active with the area of interest one presents themselves with), this would give access to voting and taking part as if a citizen; which would then also make it easier to participate in the things that later qualify one towards being patronized.

I dont know, I'll think more on it, I know my idea seems weird, but it marries the merits youd like to get out of the citizen process in terms of engagement, with, not doing away with the engagement people that have it feel, with it.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

This is a decisive no go for me. The entire point of the Curia was to be a place where users who are proven to be able to handle a mature conversation get to let their hair down without the ever present eye of moderation watching everything. The moment site moderation, which has consistently decreased in quality over the last few years, starts running the place you might as well end the Curia permanently.

Site moderation is basically abdul at this point, you see how few mods there are and how exactly one of them has been seen with any regularity. Naturally there would be more lenience in things like personal references given in a lot of ways that is the scope of this area. But simply having it as a hex function is probably fine.

A lot of the removal of elected powers I disagree with, simplyfying votes I agree with, the tribunal needs to be allowed to mediate more often, not less, I like the idea of elected positions staying longer, one serve as long as one have steam and then maybe once a year you can reapply along with others that think they could do the job well. There should be a thread called Torchbearer or something where consuls and other elected positions can say "I want to pass the torch" Then when someone shows interest votes can be established.

The tribunal would be unaffected by the changes except the manner of appointment would be simplified. The only change in powers I expect would be discouraging errant consuls from deleting things they simply don't like. The torchbearing you suggest seems like a more complicated version of what is essentially just bringing the matter up when it comes up. More complexity would not serve us well at this time but others can opine. Speaking of you're free to bring up your alternate approach in this thread and I'll go ahead and link to it for people coming in to see early on. Ultimately what you or I think specifically should be tempered with the collective we see in here. For example I expect ground to be given on the moderation bit, as above; I know Adrian is not the only one with that take.

As far as the 'magic' of citizenship it has clearly expired given the incredibly low voting pool and actual recognition that takes place. A statement of 'intent' has never been required including under the current system as citizenship merely recognizes ones contributing role in the site at the time of patronage, nothing to do with what they intend to do afterward. The 'requestor's statement' business is a convention that's not even written into the constitution as it is, it's a convention to doll up flowery application posts to satisfy a long-departed audience of judges and critics on a candidate's merits. The beauty is marred by its ineffectiveness in modern times. And while we very well could preserve the curia in this respect, that's about as good as moving it to the Cemetary outright and having citizen badges as flowery award bits on the profiles of those who were lucky enough to be recognized in the times people cared.

[Sir Adrian]

Naturally there would be more lenience in things like personal references given in a lot of ways that is the scope of this area. But simply having it as a hex function is probably fine.

Problem is I've heard that one before, and I've seen it broken before. The same was said about the Thema Devia until a couple of moderators showed up with ideas of imposing rules that applied only to the Mudpit.

Aside for Gaius over-reacting there have been no major incidents regarding moderation of the Curia that I know of in the past 11 years. It would be much better to leave the system as is with admin oversight than to open it up to trouble down the line.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

What line?

[Muizer]

We have an absentee owner. A glaring 'single point of failure'

We're down to 3 active Admins, not all of whom may be tech savvy enough to keep things going if the others go down. Another 'red flag' (no pun intended).

I'll skip over moderators. If they exist they're not very active.

In the Curia, there's no more than 5 or 6 voting. It is one thing to note the lack of legitimacy, but now even in terms of candidates for election we're threadbare. Finally we can't even fool ourselves anymore that this makes sense.

There's one or two non-citizen commentators outside the Curia and they're as grizzled veterans as anyone on the inside. That used to be the place to get new blood for the Curia.

The sum total of people with any involvement in this traditional setup is probably less than 20 and only going down.

It makes absolutely 0 sense anymore to maintain a system that's based on gate-keeping and as active members we simply cannot afford to remain split into the factions that come with the age-old structure anymore.

We're at a junction here. We either come up with something new with the express purpose of involving as many active members as possible, or we can proceed under the old framework and go quietly into the dark (it won't be long).

[alhoon]

The moment site moderation, which has consistently decreased in quality over the last few years, starts running the place you might as well end the Curia permanently.

This is the Prothalamos so we can put suggestions here.
As someone that never bothered with the Curia, I actually don't see a reason for it to exist. Adrian said it and Muizer detailed it: End the Curia permanently as a special-group and turn it to one big user group as usual, without privileges aside of handing awards. No, Citizens, magistrates, consuls etc. Eliminate the entire thing. TWC doesn't have the thousands of registered voters participating in everything anymore, so there's no need for a "special group of elites". Artifex, Opifex etc should be awards, not positions, similar to Novus, Divus etc.
Let's adopt the structure of moderate-activity forums where there are administrators and staff and the Terms of Service and no elections, special groups that have positions, constitutions etc.

Streamline the site and all.

[intel]

Whatever measures you guys want to take, make it drastic and site-wide. Every few months or years I visit that site and it breaks my heart. IMHO you guys should have moved to discord or wherever really (even reddit) the moment the owner bailed. In all honesty, maybe that's the only way out. The site runs like ass anyway.

I think DFK is on to something. You should cut the fat. The old forum culture is long gone, the CVRIA stuff is cultivating an old tradition for tradition's sake in some bizzare retelling of a cargo cult mythos (does anyone even know who crandar was?). It might have worked well in the past, because the institutional culture was constantly transmitted to new people, now that there are hardly new people, the culture doesn't spread. So institutionally, TWCenter is pretty much the Roman Empire (ironic, isn't it).

The main problems are:
- inactive site owner
- low membership
- site runs and looks like ass
- historical total war games are ass
- steam workshop modding made twc largely redundant as a modding platform
- old members are old and grumpy, that grumpiness scares away the zoomers
- image hosting is ass, as is tradition
- can't be browsed on the phone

These problems were self evident and clearly unsolvable already in years 2015+. If you check the archived or inactive parts of the forum, that's roughly the cutoff date. The rot has already set in. You guys should have realised that and took appropiate measures (I mean you as in: twc higher ups).

My totally unasked for advice is such:
Take a look on what works and what people come for. Cut or archive the rest. Encourage people (modders in particular, the actual lifeblood of TWC) to move to a new place. Turn TWC into a brand rather than a dying piece of netcode older than Iraq War.

It's not easy. It's double the work. It's not paid. It's not clear what exactly to do. And success is not guaranteed. But I don't see a point in sticking to a) obscolescent technology b) pointless tradition. Right now TWC is like Blockbuster. Clearly knowing where it's headed, still refusing to change.

And yes, I do realise a lot of that is already being done. I saw some proper axing. A- for effort, but it takes more. It takes balls to burn the old ship.


Cheers!

[Akar]

The Curia and patron system is one of the things that has always made this site stick out and I think it would be a mistake to do away with it like this. Making Citizenship an automated process would be worse than doing away with it entirely.

@Intel - Your post makes me very sad but it's completely correct.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

My totally unasked for advice is such:
Take a look on what works and what people come for. Cut or archive the rest. Encourage people (modders in particular, the actual lifeblood of TWC) to move to a new place. Turn TWC into a brand rather than a dying piece of netcode older than Iraq War.

It's not easy. It's double the work. It's not paid. It's not clear what exactly to do. And success is not guaranteed. But I don't see a point in sticking to a) obscolescent technology b) pointless tradition. Right now TWC is like Blockbuster. Clearly knowing where it's headed, still refusing to change.

And yes, I do realise a lot of that is already being done. I saw some proper axing. A- for effort, but it takes more. It takes balls to burn the old ship.


Cheers!

Part of the question for me is how many people stick around as it is purely for the nostalgia of the old forum and how it feels even as obsolete software (to be more charitable: showing up to refer to the old stuff long put together by individuals for the forum in its heyday) and how many stick around for other reasons; features, functionality, the brand itself. I suspect the former has a controlling stake - legacy material seems to be our last trick (mods, tools, discussions) besides isolated, fragile exceptions which still produce or mirror things here that may well haven't woken up yet (in the 20s especially, many finally have). The role of staff at this point is to guide the ailing creature as it slips into the long night. But if anyone has specific, realistic angles and a will to pursue them I'd be down to encourage them. If we could somehow sink our teeth into a discord niche long filled by other general servers perhaps, or take the groundwork of the wiki and make it a more effective general resource for mods and modding to maybe nibble on moddb's share of that market. The ideas exist but I'm honestly not sure how much the twcness itself can add to the market when stripped from the forum at this point. I can't imagine TWC coherently translating to reddit and the like for sure. But ultimately even though the future of TWC comes up annually it never really goes to this depth. Perhaps this can be the year that's different. We'll see...

Making Citizenship an automated process would be worse than doing away with it entirely.

Fortunately, that's not what was suggested.

[Frunk]

I don't believe simplifying criteria is going to increase nomination for awards/citizenship and thus participation.

The Curia should be mothballed completely until such time that the site recovers, which is likely never.

If I was in Hex and felt I had authority to do so, I'd decommission huge portions of this website. The site index is ungainly; the sheer amount of different sections - many with confusing names like Curia, Thema Devia, etc. - is likely to put off anyone casually browsing. That actually stopped me from browsing any further than beyond the Medieval 2 hosted mods section before 2015.

Titles newer than Medieval 2 no longer have thriving communities, likely due to the different way they are modded and the existence of the Steam Workshop. Medieval 2's Hosted Mods would have to account for the majority of this site's remaining traffic, I suspect, along with Rome I.

I stopped being active in 2018 after it became clear to me that the site wasn't going to get any better. I put thousands of hours into moderating, as I'm sure my fellows from the time can attest. I returned briefly in 2020, but with GED never having given any attention to the desperate technical needs of the site, namely the outdated software, extremely slow database and general feeling of being stuck in 2008 from a design and functionality standpoint, I drifted away again as I'm sure was the case for many others, perhaps for slightly different, but overall similar, reasons.

As I mentioned in the CCT the other day (and I was ignored completely, which I admit did make me chuckle and question if it's even worth it, as everyone in that thread preferred to continue gasbagging about the latest inconsequential drama saga), I'm considering creating my own website and forum to 'backup' much of the modding materials that exist here, particularly for the older titles. This would be a large undertaking, but if GED decides one day he doesn't even wanna pay the bills anymore, TWC will (probably instantly and without warning, 'knowing' our un-illustrious 'leader') cease to exist and all those materials along with it, for the most part.

That fact (that the site may vanish any day now), from my perspective, makes the idea of putting any time or effort into TWC - and much less any time into the Curia - a fruitless endeavour. Hence I'd oppose any proposal that comes of this discussion. Apologies DFK. I don't intend that as a criticism of those here who still do bother with various staff roles; an admirable effort. Like I mentioned, I've felt like it was a losing battle for years though, back when I was in moderation. And back then the community was far more active than it is now.

And for the record I did message GED with an offer to purchase TWC, but naturally he hasn't even logged in since then. I'm hardly someone who's very well-off, so I have no idea if I could afford an asking price for TWC. I could manage to pay for a new website and forum software (hence my thread in the TD).

My new website - if it does end up getting made - would be a place for hosting older title mods & mod materials. I wouldn't expect a thriving community in this day and age (2024), and the community isn't really the point, certainly not initially; the point is saving those mods & resources in case TWC vanishes as mentioned. If a community was formed on my new forum, even better. "Build it and they will come", maybe. General discussion sections for non-TW would certainly exist and could evolve as needed. That said, I'm not naive to think, nor would I care, about competing with Discord, Steam, Reddit, Moddb or even with TWC itself as it continues to exist in this sad limbo.

I have contacted some members I respect about this idea already.

I don't wish to derail this thread (and I'll probably be ignored again anyway ). I'm not asking for permission, or support. I'll either do it or not do it based on whether I truly think it's feasible (to go through and, most likely, manually copy/backup things that are posted here on TWC), and also if it's worthwhile (alternatively I just keep things for myself so I can continue to mod as a private hobby).

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

(...)

Given the nature of discourse this thread can go wherever I guess if it results in something usable. In absence of full engagement with the thread's premise, we can find a usable tangent. I'd rather not just ignore the Curia fora or just bin it all on the spot but if that's what it comes down to then... hey, show's gotta end eventually.

But in the spirit of curial autonomy it can languish for some time before that plug is yanked.

Running through threads manually is not feasible, I would instead look into scraping, scraping which can ideally be sophisticated enough to burrow by forum (ie, following links) and isn't just querying every showthread id in order. It's not impossible for sure, the right people just have to bunker down, figure it out and commit the storage/runtime. I've a collection of links I should actually update my relevant userspace on the wiki with to look into. If an archive can be produced in this way then I would consider the bulk of the archive project successful, at that point we'll have done about all we can do for the site as it stands and won't really have to worry if it slips off. In earlier efforts I got exactly one hand on deck, Werety, who hasn't posted on the forum in quite some time but has maintained a neat collection of archives for Medieval 2 especially that mean not everything would be lost there at least if the plug was pulled tonight. Much of what you're describing would therefore be possible right now. But yeah, scraper is the only way to make the effort worth its while.

I've been around the block with alt sites otherwise. Still open to chipping in on worthwhile projects though my record doesn't qualify me as sole proprietor for sure. The approach of having something in the background that can gently take over when needed is probably safer than the forking that took place a year or so ago.

Open to suggestions on decommissioning or simplifying broader areas.

----

Since it's come up a few times now the criteria re citizenship has no change suggested: just a clearer encouragement of what to look for and to just get worthy people up and out there. The criteria is already bare bottom in the constitution, it just doesn't get any bites and I am under the impression people hold out because who cares anymore the completely unwritten bureaucracy around citizenship is stifling as hell and damages what little motivation someone thinking about the process might have, and just forgetting to patronize people attracts flies when you look at members who were lucky enough to get badges when we still cared vs now when the whole thing is a gangly mess nobody wants to actually engage with, leaving anyone on the newer or underseen side in the cold.

[intel]

First of all, I apologize for not reading Curia Commentary prior. Most of what I've said has been already said with near perfect clarity several times, down to the Blockbuster comparison.

Second, I do share Frunk's sentiment. Despite what some of old geezers may think, the main value of TWC has always been the modding scene. I would not like GED to wake up some day, check the state of the site and just turn off the lights with no warning.

Third, everyone involved has a clear picture of situation which I applaud. DFK seems to have the right idea. As usual, not enough hands for the deck even for the bare minimum.

So my suggestion is a night of a long knives, but for forums.

All inactive forums axed. TW WH I,II,III subforums are dead, with last activity being from 2023 despite the series ongoing popularity.

Axe.

The game should be instead brought into the general "Newish Total War Games" forum with appropiate stickied threads for each of them. Same principle for each game, with the exception of ones with active-ish mods.

Same principle for the entire Site Administration forum.

Ideally, a newcomer should be greeted with less of the myriad confusing forums. Ideally, the first thing a newcomer should see is what he came here for. M2TW, RTW, NTW and ETW mods.



Of course, rtw and m2tw modding repository should be archived in some way.


Also, I distinctly recall that vBulletin 4 is very much possible to archive in a WARC. As a static archive with all its forum functionality disabled.
All hosted mods with recoverable files could be uploaded to an external host. I suggest Moddb.

[Frunk]

I agree with intel, basically completely. I suggested a similar move back in my staff days. Times were different then, of course, and there was a bit more hope than there is now. I don't mean that in a negative way. The sentiment used to be that with each new title, there was perhaps a perception of chance that TWC would 'take off' again. That's never happened, if we look at the numbers of posts each title has on the index:

Rome 1: 1,000,000
Three Kingdoms: 4,500
Saga: 4,300
Warhammer: 37,000
Atilla: 128,000
Rome II: 654,000 (a lot of that may have been controversy-related! Which doesn't diminish from its value)
Shogun 2: 268,000
Empire: 750,000
Medieval 2: 2,800,000
Medieval 1: 6,500
Shogun 1: 1,000

So I'd envisage a forum index something like this:

Rome: Total War
Medieval 2: Total War
Other Total War Titles
Chat forums (condensed to make all of them sub-forums of TD, better named "General Chat", plus non-TW games, and maybe Creative forums)
Debate forums (I've barely set 'foot' in them ever so can't say much about them - I think put them below Chat though as the latter are certainly more casual and welcoming)
Admin forums

My argument back in the day was screen real estate as much as anything else. Breaking each title up into its own section adds a few more centimetres to the index than is needed.

I feel like procrastinating & wasting some time () today, so here's a mock-up. I obviously have access to some staff forums as an emeritus which exacerbates the symptoms in my case.

Exhibit A (this is what TWC looks like right now):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Right off the bat, guests are welcomed by 2 forums which haven't been posted in since last year. Medieval 2, arguably our 'flagship', is halfway down the page.

Oh by the way I use a browser extension to reverse colours, hence the blue. Forgot to change before I screenshot'd, sorry.

Exhibit B, an alternative:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is a rough cut I did in 10 minutes so forgive the gaps where I clicked & dragged or cut. This is also roughly a layout I'd consider for a new website, were I to make it, minus D&D and Content (largely because those things can't be "forced" to exist, but also because I think they are niche to TWC and outside the scope of the plans I have, which are the preserve modding assets and mod communities).

A saving of 1275 pixels or 30cm~ of screen real estate, for anyone curious.

I think the vBulletin 4 platform doesn't help things, so a more-modern software, better typeface, and other design changes could make it more visually appealing. Also, back in the day forums used to have buffer space on either side of the index, rather than span right across it, so things don't seem to crowded. See all that space in the middle of the screen? That should be on the left, kind of like what you see on the right beneath the poll box. That's just a particular of the skin TWC uses.

I'm sure someone will jump in with "but my favourite section is missing/badly affected by this". Dare I say we have bigger problems than any one section. The goal is to:

- Maximise our assets, which are the early TW titles and their modding communities.
- Support other TW titles & non-TW games as this is still a "gaming forum".
- Promote chat and content creation but also streamline it so it's not such a nightmare to understand for outsiders.
- Preserve the home of niche TWC concepts like Content, Creative Sections and D&D.

There are likely things I cut off the actual index which I didn't bother to put back. Many of them would end up as sub-forums, not as deleted. This is a rough layout, not a proposal, and certainly not a strict one at that. That said, the mock-up could arguably be cut down even further in places. The details aren't relevant at this point in time.

Would this solve all of TWC's problems? No. It probably wouldn't help much, certainly not initially. In fact it would probably alienate some people who are already here. But over time if the site is to continue to exist, the things that are going to bring people here as opposed to other platforms, is the two sections up top. People searching for mods for the two old school TW titles that best allowed for wide-scope modding. Indeed, others may come for some of the other titles, which is great. They might just stay for the Chat, Creative or Debate sections. And maybe someday we'll have a community here again that justifies the existence of a sub-community/awards body like the Curia. Even a pipedream is still a dream!

Currently though, no. The Curia is a pointless distraction. It's the band playing while the Titanic sinks.

intel makes a crucial point about the lack of mobile phone support. That's not solved by this. That needs new software.

DFK, I'd love to chat more about scraping and options there. Moddb is a logical place to upload mods for posterity as intel suggests.

EDIT: Since the front page (twcenter.net) has never been modernised as needed, I would suggest, if Hex is able, to find a way that the domain takes a visitor directly to the forum index (twcenter.net/forums). I remember that being an ACP setting in some forums I ran way back in the day, but might not necessarily be possible here (requiring domain access). The front page is embarrassing and pointless.

[Niles Crane]

I have contacted some members I respect about this idea already.

Still waiting on that PM...

[Muizer]

IMHO you guys should have moved to discord or wherever really (even reddit) the moment the owner bailed. In all honesty, maybe that's the only way out.

The baked in institution inertia has been a double edged sword. I think it came with a sense of obligation that probably meant the site has lasted longer than it has the 'right' to. Even this discussion and whatever may come out of it probably would not even have happened without it. On the other hand it has made changes of course nearly impossible. There may be a small window of opportunity now to transition while preserving the kernal of the old community. But IMHO it would have to be a coordinated effort. Not like what happened a while ago where a few members suddenly announced they had built an alternative forum and if we'd all would like to come over.

Take a look on what works and what people come for. Cut or archive the rest. Encourage people (modders in particular, the actual lifeblood of TWC) to move to a new place. Turn TWC into a brand rather than a dying piece of netcode older than Iraq War.

I'm in favour of exploring the option to move to Discord. It will be a big challenge to select, preserve and provide access to the resources accumulated on the forums. And I'm not even sure where we stand from a legal pov in terms of the 'brand' and the site contents. But sticking with forums (either this one or a new one) as the main hub of interaction doesn't seem very promising.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Honestly there are already several vibrant TW modding communities on Discord, led by active modders. I don't see much chance of success for a new TWC Discord Modding Offshoot, led by people, which haven't mod since years.

And Med II and Rome I the only flaggships of TWC the rest TW titles in the junk box subfora, which will help TWC to survive?



You need Med II, Rome remastered and Rome Total war together, to even surpass the active steam players of the eleven year old Rome II.

Even Rome Remastered hasn't bring back the glory early days of RTW and thousands of users storming the gates of TWC.

Before thinking about changing the frontend of TWC, inform yourself about TW games and modding in general.

[Narf]

We're at a junction here. We either come up with something new with the express purpose of involving as many active members as possible, or we can proceed under the old framework and go quietly into the dark (it won't be long).

I agree wit this, that is why I suggested people could gain entry with a show of interest and intent. Which then makes it easier to participate - become citizens One can simply say, Hi I am x, I want to X. Please give me access - Only to be lost should they not use it. If they do, they are on path to citizen already.

Oh Narf, you gentle soul, there is no down the road. Unless the site is sold to someone who cares or some miracle happens the future of TWC is the same as that of the org

Its not. ()

I refuse to believe that after 20 years this website does not have a contingency.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So, this is one of those pickles I've heard about, Curia is not my normal space but I trust it, and I do see a way for this to resolve, though there might be many valid feelings and reasons people will dislike it. I will suggest solutions to following issues:

1 Misuse of Moderation Powers and Absent Communication:

The direct breach can be inferred from Gigantus' reference to general forum rules:

Local Moderator Forum Rules: Local moderators are given considerable leeway in moderating their boards, but there are limits to what they're permitted to do—they are not permitted to suppress dissent, for instance, if it does not violate forum rules.

The actions conflict with the general forum rules regarding local moderators’ conduct as Gig lays out.
See solution 4.

2 Rushish Administrative Intervention Without Following Confidence Process:

Gaius Baltar's statement 1 and statement 2: "It appears I have been extrajudicially removed from the position of Consul." about "their inappropriate activities within the Curia" without a preceding VoNC process illustrates a deviation from the constitutionally outlined method when howing todo with Curial Officers.
The constitution is clear on the use of VoNC for addressing neglect of duty or abuse of authority, this was circumvented with this post from DFK as the Why.
See solution 5.

3 Gaius Baltar’s Actions Post-Removal:

Gaius Baltar's call to action took the form of a VoNC against all members of the Hexagon Council and altering member statuses without due process is also against the principles of collective decision-making - the procedures within the Curia.
See solution 5.

4 Opening a new Election for Consul without addressing the Preceding Issues:

While not directly violating anything specific, the move to open a new election for the Consul position without fully resolving or addressing the issues leading to the former Consul's removal and the procedural deviations that followed ARE a breach of the broader principles this place is build on. Here, Adrian, the site dosnt exactly have a contingency, but a spirit unheard.
See solution 2.

I think the way to mend the discontent, is to take things in review and follow a cookbook like this back to normalcy:

1. Accepting Current Ruling Temporarily: This step acknowledges the actions taken while recognizing the need for a formal review. It prevents further immediate actions without due process, ensuring that any grievances or disputes are addressed within established forums like the Tribunal.
2. Suspending the Current Election: Halting the ongoing election process allows for a reassessment of the situation and ensures that any new election is conducted without the cloud of unresolved disputes. This respects the principle of fair representation and leadership within the community.
3. Allow the last elected Consul to act as temporary mediator if willing, going back till one is so. This way it its not one appointed. It ensures continuity and respects the democratic choices of the communiti. Their role would be to oversee the rectification process without bias(!).
4. Address Specific Grievances through Established Channels:
   
   
   • Baltar's Appeal to the Tribunal: Allowing Gaius Baltar to appeal the Hexagon Council's ruling against him provides an opportunity for a thorough review of the decision, ensuring it was made with fairness.
   • Appeal Regarding Post Removal: Mishkin (or any affected parties) should take the issue of post removals by the Local Moderator (LM) to the Tribunal, offering a chance for an independent review and decision based on the merits of the case.
   
   
5. Now we can have a VONC, if still needed for Baltar. If deemed necessary, the temporary Consul would oversee a Vote of No Confidence (VoNC) process. This step would only be pursued if essential and would determine the legitimacy and future of the Consularship.
6. And if needed Potential Ostrakon Against Administrators: Following the leniency shown by DFK here: Link. Should Baltar wish so. Should they allow for it.
7. Restart Elections should VONC pass/Take down Elections should it fail.

I would like to be done with this as soon as possible, as I believe the Ostracon and maybe even the VONC could be very speedy or hand waived. But very important, lets stop the vote, do this so we can have/ Not have one as fast as possible.

With these things ascertained, changes will also be able to be discussed with a consul weighing in. I dont have the steam to answer all the smart posts the way they deserve, or claim to understand it all fully, but I have a strong feeling in my left brow that its important this is done carefully and slowly, with as few cut cornors as possible - Yes with the current activity kept in mind.

N.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

^ not sold on this last one but for discussion's sake 2c on it is welcome.

Later might split the sitewide discussion to the Q&S leaving this spot dedicated to curia business, since the former naturally has far broader implications and has been far more effective than the curia only inputs.