Thread: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

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    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Sticking to the definition of that word, it doesn't mean "only" in its current use. If you want to clarify this, then the sentence in the Constitution has to be corrected accordingly.
    Those definitions didn't really clarify the use of 'any' in our situation. I think in our context the most logical understanding is that 'any citizen' means 'only citizens' because it specifically states 'citizens'. A statement such as 'any MP may propose a bill in Parliament' would hardly mean that anyone can propose a bill. If the intention of the Overhaul was to also allow non-citizens to make proposals that's fine, but that's not what is permitted at the moment.
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Hortensius Hortalus View Post
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Oh no, have we breached Staff nda? Oh no, do we have to be punsihed? The whip Flinn? Oh noooo
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Those definitions didn't really clarify the use of 'any' in our situation. I think in our context the most logical understanding is that 'any citizen' means 'only citizens' because it specifically states 'citizens'. A statement such as 'any MP may propose a bill in Parliament' would hardly mean that anyone can propose a bill. If the intention of the Overhaul was to also allow non-citizens to make proposals that's fine, but that's not what is permitted at the moment.
    The logical understanding of a statement about "any citizen" is that it does not make any statement about non-citizens. Neither does it explicitly permit nor forbid them to do anything, hence why in the light of the spirit of the recent amendment we should clarify that any full member may table a resolution in the Proth.
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  5. #6365

    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    If we are going to ignore the language of the Constitution then what is the point. If you do not like it, then propose an amendment. As far as I am concerned, the "66" did shake things up (while ignoring the "White Elephant"), so the spirit is already there.

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    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Who complained about a non-citizen posting a proposal in the Prot? Seems logical that it should be that person to propose an amendement
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    The whole point of opening the Prothalamos was that non-citizens can table proposals and participate in proposal discussions.
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I made a post about this here.

    I essentially agree with Katsumoto, his example about parliament is a good one. You can't interpret that line in any other way than that it only allows for citizens to post proposals. The wording "may" is simply an alternative to a "should" or "must." It may be within the intent and spirit of the overhaul amendment to open the Prothalmos to allow proposals by non-citizens, but I feel like this is a much bigger change then simply allowing posting for discussion/commentary and needs to be explicitly voted on rather than slipping it in.

    I'm neither for or against this at the moment. I will say I do not want to close a non-citizen thread as invalid, so I will ask non-citizens to hold off on making a proposal until we can get an amendment to clarify this.

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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I've never liked disagreeing with you boss but this is extremely daft. You can comment but you can't start threads? WTF? That makes as much sense as a drunk rhino on the interstate? Seriously, who among the people who voted yes even thought of that interpretation? Please raise your hand anybody who did think like that.

    And just what does it matter who posts a proposal as long as it needs 3 citizen support to go a vote and only citizens will vote on it?

    Not to mention that it goes explicitly against what GED said so many times about everybody who access to a sub-forum being allowed to use every feature they have access to.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; March 08, 2019 at 11:58 AM.
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  10. #6370
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthFox View Post
    I will say I do not want to close a non-citizen thread as invalid, so I will ask non-citizens to hold off on making a proposal until we can get an amendment to clarify this.
    I think such an amendment could include something of what GED posted here.
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    I've never liked disagreeing with you boss but this is extremely daft. You can comment but you can't start threads? WTF? That makes as much sense as a drunk rhino on the interstate? Seriously, who among the people who voted yes even thought of that interpretation? Please raise your hand anybody who did think like that.

    And just what does it matter who posts a proposal as long as it needs 3 citizen support to go a vote and only citizens will vote on it?

    Not to mention that it goes explicitly against what GED said so many times about everybody who access to a sub-forum being allowed to use every feature they have access to.
    I think this is more of a circumstance I did not necessarily notice would be an issue after the passing of the overhaul proposal. It's something that just needs rewording/clarification to achieve the desired intent without muddying the waters about it. I would definitely want non citizens to be able to and welcome in creating threads in the Proth, though thought needs to be given to any special circumstances and just the wording of the constitution in general on the matter. It's an unfortunate letter-of-the-law versus spirit-of-the-law circumstance, but should be addressed nonetheless. There's no need to blow it out of proportion one direction or the other though.

  12. #6372

    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    I've never liked disagreeing with you boss but this is extremely daft. You can comment but you can't start threads? WTF? That makes as much sense as a drunk rhino on the interstate? Seriously, who among the people who voted yes even thought of that interpretation? Please raise your hand anybody who did think like that.

    And just what does it matter who posts a proposal as long as it needs 3 citizen support to go a vote and only citizens will vote on it?

    Not to mention that it goes explicitly against what GED said so many times about everybody who access to a sub-forum being allowed to use every feature they have access to.
    I thought it was just to allow peregrinii to comment directly to proposals. Radical move as is. As far as I am concerned, being able to comment directly but not make actual proposals may be an enticement for interest in citizenship This is actually a blessing in disguise.

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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I thought it was just to allow peregrinii to comment directly to proposals. Radical move as is. As far as I am concerned, being able to comment directly but not make actual proposals may be an enticement for interest in citizenship This is actually a blessing in disguise.
    Or just another reason to not even bother participating for non citizens.

    In any case not something you or I or any citizen can really speculate on. All I can say is the intent of what I think to be best is to allow some degree of non citizens being able to make proposals.

  14. #6374

    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I had opposed the amendment for reasons already expounded on. Based on that, It is not my responsibility to amend the Constitution for you or suspend my reading skills and by assuming your intent. I assume those in favor would have made all of the necessary changes. Your oversight is not my problem. As it is right now, Perengrinii cannot propose. If you want that to be the case, then you need to do what Steathfox did and make an amendment to do just that. It is not to convince everyone to ignore the wording of the Constitution.

    I prefer it changed so that there is no room for excuses.


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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I had opposed the amendment for reasons already expounded on. Based on that, It is not my responsibility to amend the Constitution for you or suspend my reading skills and by assuming your intent. I assume those in favor would have made all of the necessary changes. Your oversight is not my problem. As it is right now, Perengrinii cannot propose. If you want that to be the case, then you need to do what Steathfox did and make an amendment to do just that. It is not to convince everyone to ignore the wording of the Constitution.

    I prefer it changed so that there is no room for excuses.

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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Hey these new badges look great.
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    Yep, Squid finished uploading them not long ago. He did say it might take some time before they all show up in the system. So don't panic yet if your's isn't showing, give it some time first.

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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    I noticed Seether and Pikestance have broken image links of their Artifex badges for me, not sure why.
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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    The new badges look nice, but because they use the entire space (no overlapping images), there isn't a nice "gap" with the user titles, so it looks very busy and the user title is squeezed between two images. I wonder if it possible to increase the spacing.

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    Default Re: Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

    That will be wizard territory - nothing in the control panel.










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