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Thread: Valuation of Citizenship

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    Default Valuation of Citizenship

    Valuation of Citizenship

    The Context for this thread comes from here..., Promoting the Curia

    I have included the post I was responding to as a point of reference.

    What is the value of citizenship. If it has little or no value, then why perpetuate it; we should abolish it completely.

    Does citizenship have value? Some would argue it is irrelevant. However, the vast majority of contributors are citizens. This makes sense. Citizens on average have been on the site longer and have developed a stronger stake in the forum/ site. The most experience members who are not citizens are either former citizens or have rejected it for a variety of valid reasons. However, many of members through the amount time invested on the forum has become stakeholders. It is either through their own poor behavior and the lack of patronages that has excluded them from being part of the group.

    The question to be asked, if members are choosing to not be citizens, then we need to ask why?

    Once upon a time, members would post an interest in citizenship and request a patron. (I know this because this was actually mentioned by one of the admins in post I recently read back in 2004. Flash forward to 2011 and I run across a wiki that members can inquire about citizenship. I did and boy did I get a rude awakening. A total 180 different in attitude in a 10 year span. The uber elitism of citizenship is itself a detriment.

    So, we have a choice- Either we accept its irrelevance and abolish citizenship or we restore it to what it was when it was created and hope that this could spark a Neo-Renaissance for the site. Alternatively, we can take our chances that individuals would just do things, but this sites growth, for better or for worse, benefited from the institution of citizenship as noted above.

    Ask yourself these questions;

    1. Why are you a citizen?
    2. How has the forum benefited from your citizenship?
    3. If you value your citizenship, why have you not "pass on" your status to another member?
    4. If you did, why have patronized a member of the site? Would you do it again?
    5. Again, if we do not value citizenship, then why keep it? Is it the badge that we value? If so, why is the badge that important to you?


    Please do share your thoughts.
    Last edited by PikeStance; November 21, 2021 at 09:32 AM. Reason: Took out old reference to help focus on the actual point of the thread
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Frankly, the opening argument here is predicated on a fallacy. POVG was merely unconvinced that adding citizens was the only way to go, instead inclined to focus on what citizens actually do for the site. That's the opposite of stating it has no value, he merely disagrees where the value is coming from and where it should come from moving forward.

    Now, to answer the questions on their own.
    1. People decided I'd make a good citizen and I accepted for the heck of it. Frankly I don't think my case was any good both in contributions and in attitude.
    2. Citizenship, next to nothing. Presence, I like to think the TWC Wiki has somewhat improved based on my influence.
    3. I've not found a good opportunity to 'pass it on' that hasn't been basically absorbed by other members who've done outreach. Thus I skip #4.
    5. I think it is something of an allegory for the site itself. Ample opportunity, but caught up in aged traditions and loops of decay. Though what holds the Curia itself back is not as strong as the elements objectively holding the Site back, they're no less daunting to any one user's vision for betterness. Especially when it is obvious what people think is 'better' in context of citizenship and the Curia differs radically to the point of endless argument, even if the details are really not all that different.

    The value itself is, and perhaps always was what people make of it on different nuanced levels. One definition really doesn't fit all. Citizens are both empowered and capable of doing various different things, and it is a distraction to bog down in the semantics while we have a structure such as this to work with and offer some token degree of direction. What I'd ultimately like to see is for it to be universally inclusive, an entity of the participating membership that's basically member+. If you're here the right amount of time/content invested, prove you can stick around would like to see the site continue in whatever capacity that you enjoy it, you're in, and you should not be obliged to the image of the vocal minority that populates Curia main to the extent you'd refuse it.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Let's say I accept your premise that citizenship adds no value...
    That's a pretty big misrepresentation of his point, I think.

    He said "Citizenship has no comparative value" not that citizenship has no value.

    So, we have a choice- Either we abolish citizenship or we restore it to what it was when it was created and hope that this could spark a Renaissance on the site.
    I think this is a false dichotomy.

    Most experience members who are not citizens are either former citizens or reject it for a variety of valid reasons.

    The question to be asked, if members are choosing to no be a citizen, you need to ask why?
    I agree, but at the same time I don't think we should necessarily be trying to cater to those people unless their grievances are legitimate.

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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Let's say I accept your premise that citizenship adds no value...
    On that, this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dismounted Feudal Knight View Post
    Frankly, the opening argument here is predicated on a fallacy. POVG was merely unconvinced that adding citizens was the only way to go, instead inclined to focus on what citizens actually do for the site. That's the opposite of stating it has no value, he merely disagrees where the value is coming from and where it should come from moving forward.
    I couldn't have put it more eloquently. I didn't say Citizenship has no value at all. Would you like to try again?
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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Sorry, I didn't mean to get in the way of bickering carried over from another thread by giving a sincere response!
    Last edited by Muizer; November 20, 2021 at 05:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dismounted Feudal Knight View Post
    Frankly, the opening argument here is predicated on a fallacy. POVG was merely unconvinced that adding citizens was the only way to go, instead inclined to focus on what citizens actually do for the site. That's the opposite of stating it has no value, he merely disagrees where the value is coming from and where it should come from moving forward.
    I accidentally left out "comparable." I used his points has a springboard for the questions. As I noted in my response, the primary "movers" of the site either are citizens or have been citizens. Moreover, it isn't about "adding on" citizens. I a talking about the root of the problem, not the symptom. If you do not value citizenship to "pass it on," then why be a citizen at all. And, yes, iI know the vast majority of citizens have not done so. However, the decline all correlates with the lack of applications. people like to conveniently leave it out because they like to think that the Curia (citizenship) is a separate entity from the forum, rather than an integral part of its growth and functioning. Thus the question, if it isn't something that is integral to its success and growth, then is it worth keeping. So, no, it has a definite positive "comparable advantage." We can dissect the use of the term, "positive" LOL However, you could argue the decline of the site correlates well with the overall decline of the site. This begs the question, if the net value of the citizenship is negative, then the Curia will simply drag the site down. It can simply be as black and white as that.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I accidentally left out "comparable." I used his points has a springboard for the questions. As I noted in my response, the primary "movers" of the site either are citizens or have been citizens. Moreover, it isn't about "adding on" citizens. I a talking about the root of the problem, not the symptom. If you do not value citizenship to "pass it on," then why be a citizen at all. And, yes, iI know the vast majority of citizens have not done so. However, the decline all correlates with the lack of applications. people like to conveniently leave it out because they like to think that the Curia (citizenship) is a separate entity from the forum, rather than an integral part of its growth and functioning. Thus the question, if it isn't something that is integral to its success and growth, then is it worth keeping. So, no, it has a definite positive "comparable advantage." We can dissect the use of the term, "positive" LOL However, you could argue the decline of the site correlates well with the overall decline of the site. This begs the question, if the net value of the citizenship is negative, then the Curia will simply drag the site down. It can simply be as black and white as that.
    Correlation is not causation. But I think it's irrelevant to bog into the semantics of this claim. I think focusing on the idea of patronization is a red herring for the objective decline of the site's value to the Total War franchise, its appeal at a technical level to an ever marching internet, and the headlessness of its primary management and initiative that are the key sources of declined activity.

    Personally I'd rather focus on the value the site may yet hold to mitigate some of the above, such as the Wiki; technically out of date as it is, it's still just new enough that it can be a tool for the above. Citizenship can come by proxy of that, and be an appeal that loops back into the forum itself. Function is the integral part of what keeps the site growing and functioning. The site has been losing out on that for as long as the correlation has existed. Thus I find a majority of Curial things, except ones which are geared towards addressing function with the Curia's own machinations and growth as a consequence and secondary appeal for that objective to be a case of tragically misplaced priorities. Ultimately I think the biggest mistake is to think too hard of citizenship. Which don't get me wrong, I've done in the past, and hope to do far less in the future.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I accidentally left out "comparable."
    Forgetting the word "comparable" doesn't really make sense. You outright took what I said as claiming that Citizenship has no value (when I certainly didn't) as the rest of your post continues on that point. You likely didn't read what I wrote with a basic level of carefulness. Ended up with a response that doesn't have anything to do with what you quoted. Realizing this, as multiple people pointed out, instead of simply acknowledging it, and moving on, you maneuver to make it appear as if the problem is just that you forgot to put a word in but that the general sense of it was correct. It wasn't. You could give it an other shot and actually address what I said, but you didn't. Now that I further worded it out you'll likely throw accusations of argumentativeness, standards, bad/good faith and whatnot while failing to see the irony. In the end, we have a thread disguised as a thought experiment that's actually a rather lengthy strawman fallacy. Without you coming to terms with the actual premise this thread has little to no point.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Forgetting the word "comparable" doesn't really make sense. You outright took what I said as claiming that Citizenship has no value (when I certainly didn't) as the rest of your post continues on that point. You likely didn't read what I wrote with a basic level of carefulness. Ended up with a response that doesn't have anything to do with what you quoted. Realizing this, as multiple people pointed out, instead of simply acknowledging it, and moving on, you maneuver to make it appear as if the problem is just that you forgot to put a word in but that the general sense of it was correct. It wasn't. You could give it an other shot and actually address what I said, but you didn't. Now that I further worded it out you'll likely throw accusations of argumentativeness, standards, bad/good faith and whatnot while failing to see the irony. In the end, we have a thread disguised as a thought experiment that's actually a rather lengthy strawman fallacy. Without you coming to terms with the actual premise this thread has little to no point.
    The point of this thread and my response to you is not contingent on any absolute. it is little silly for you to think that. Asking what value does citizenship have does not require an absolute. Creating a extreme premise, black or white is an age old discussion technique. Moreover, this is meant to be a discussion, not a debate. You need to change your approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dismounted Feudal Knight View Post
    Correlation is not causation. But I think it's irrelevant to bog into the semantics of this claim. I think focusing on the idea of patronization is a red herring for the objective decline of the site's value to the Total War franchise, its appeal at a technical level to an ever marching internet, and the headlessness of its primary management and initiative that are the key sources of declined activity.

    Personally I'd rather focus on the value the site may yet hold to mitigate some of the above, such as the Wiki; technically out of date as it is, it's still just new enough that it can be a tool for the above. Citizenship can come by proxy of that, and be an appeal that loops back into the forum itself. Function is the integral part of what keeps the site growing and functioning. The site has been losing out on that for as long as the correlation has existed. Thus I find a majority of Curial things, except ones which are geared towards addressing function with the Curia's own machinations and growth as a consequence and secondary appeal for that objective to be a case of tragically misplaced priorities. Ultimately I think the biggest mistake is to think too hard of citizenship. Which don't get me wrong, I've done in the past, and hope to do far less in the future.
    I really do not need a lesson key term usage. I chose correlation on purpose. As I stated, the Curia, being viewed as a separate entity needing a separate function is a fallacy. it is integrated into the site itself. This is why I used correlation and not causation. This is also why the decline in the Curia correlated with the decline of the site, because the two are linked. They are not link with a causal relationship but it is integrated as an "institution" to the development and growth of the forum.

    I agree to a point. It is misplaced for sure. We either focus on procedure within the Curia (which we can never agree on). or we are caught up with distributing awards other than citizenship. What's the message? The Curia is a pseudo- government role-play rather than a place to make suggestion to the site. The award given is counterproductive. Now the Curia is an awards committee. It sends the wrong message on both accounts. The net results is that citizenship is an entrance into a "club" which is a role playing game or an award committee. The fact that member bicker over nonsensical points just adds to the poor reputation. Throw into the mix that very few people patronized and it is an exclusive club that "do nothing."

    The definition of stupidity. insanity is doing something over and over again an expecting a different result. Well, that defines the "Curia" for over 5 years now. Instead of continuously doubling down on the same nonsense, maybe we need to rethink our approach. More awards, more procedural debates is not going to make this place more attractive. Most awards should be automatic or given over to a dedicated staff or committee. Stop changing the same rules. patronize more and promote citizenship what it was intended to be, exemplars and committed members of the site.

    We won't change the "negative culture" of the Curia overnight. it is going to take a change in attitude and approach. Citizens do not become citizens to help the Curia to function, they are citizens to promote and enable the site to function.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Given the semantic differences outlined above, the only correct path here is not to discuss it, but to simply do, both proactively for areas of the site that are of interest and for targets of opportunity in the meantime, including prospective new citizens. This is just bogging down.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dismounted Feudal Knight View Post
    Given the semantic differences outlined above, the only correct path here is not to discuss it, but to simply do, both proactively for areas of the site that are of interest and for targets of opportunity in the meantime, including prospective new citizens. This is just bogging down.
    So the solution is to stick our heads in the sand and hope it works itself out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Sorry, I didn't mean to get in the way of bickering carried over from another thread by giving a sincere response!
    No, I am glad at least one person responded to genuinely discuss the issue.
    I wish you had left your comments. I was hoping to get more. It seems even when discussing a real issue, it becomes a pissing contest. Is this the Curia that Flinn wants to promote?
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Trying to disguise being argumentative using a false premise as "discussing a real issue" and then to accuse someone of propagating a pissing contest while that person tries to correct the premise and keep the discussion genuine is the kind of approach that needs to change.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    The discussion is on the value of citizenship. What motivated me is not the topic of discussion. If you do not want to discuss that then move on. If you do, then I welcome your thoughts.

    OP changed
    Last edited by PikeStance; November 21, 2021 at 09:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    I view this as yet another attempt to derail a potentially good idea.
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    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar hey it geg
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    I get nominated for citizenship and two days later a thread is started questioning the very existence of citizenship. Coincidence? I think not
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    I get nominated for citizenship and two days later a thread is started questioning the very existence of citizenship. Coincidence? I think not
    Irony is something that we should always keep in high esteem, here in the Curia.

    Honestly to me it seems that we are way too much concerned about the political side of the Curia and very little about its "promoting a positive culture" thing, sadly.

    Go out there and roam the site, look for people at need of help, and help them or give them directions to where they can find it; or be ready to partake in any activity which is promoting the site, its content and its activities (Staff, Committees, Modding teams, etc); or be kind and educated (or at the least do not be harsh or confrontational, if possible); or be of good example, and constantly put your mouth where your money is; or any mix of those and any other activity which is effectively promoting a welcoming and proactive culture in the Curia and in the site at large.

    The Curia is not about ourselves, we should not be egoistic and pretend that it's a tool we are being given to promote our own agenda or philosophy or whatever; it is really all about those positive activities I mentioned above, and no rule can force you to create, join or improve any of them. And yes, it will be a thankless job for the most... so to put it easy, Citizenship is about serving, the rest is just decorative stuff.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Irony is something that we should always keep in high esteem, here in the Curia.

    Honestly to me it seems that we are way too much concerned about the political side of the Curia and very little about its "promoting a positive culture" thing, sadly.

    Go out there and roam the site, look for people at need of help, and help them or give them directions to where they can find it; or be ready to partake in any activity which is promoting the site, its content and its activities (Staff, Committees, Modding teams, etc); or be kind and educated (or at the least do not be harsh or confrontational, if possible); or be of good example, and constantly put your mouth where your money is; or any mix of those and any other activity which is effectively promoting a welcoming and proactive culture in the Curia and in the site at large.

    The Curia is not about ourselves, we should not be egoistic and pretend that it's a tool we are being given to promote our own agenda or philosophy or whatever; it is really all about those positive activities I mentioned above, and no rule can force you to create, join or improve any of them. And yes, it will be a thankless job for the most... so to put it easy, Citizenship is about serving, the rest is just decorative stuff.

    Great post and entirely correct. When the Curia becomes a proper force for good on the site members will be lining up to become citizens.

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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Irony is something that we should always keep in high esteem, here in the Curia.

    Honestly to me it seems that we are way too much concerned about the political side of the Curia and very little about its "promoting a positive culture" thing, sadly.

    Go out there and roam the site, look for people at need of help, and help them or give them directions to where they can find it; or be ready to partake in any activity which is promoting the site, its content and its activities (Staff, Committees, Modding teams, etc); or be kind and educated (or at the least do not be harsh or confrontational, if possible); or be of good example, and constantly put your mouth where your money is; or any mix of those and any other activity which is effectively promoting a welcoming and proactive culture in the Curia and in the site at large.

    The Curia is not about ourselves, we should not be egoistic and pretend that it's a tool we are being given to promote our own agenda or philosophy or whatever; it is really all about those positive activities I mentioned above, and no rule can force you to create, join or improve any of them. And yes, it will be a thankless job for the most... so to put it easy, Citizenship is about serving, the rest is just decorative stuff.
    Finally, someone else is saying this beside me.
    The last part I would not say. Serving makes it sound you need to be directly helping the site. Citizenship is about being the best possible member, through that, you are promoting the site and not yourself.
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    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar hey it geg
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    I say we abolish citizenship and all awards
    Rep me and I'll rep you back.

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  20. #20
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
    Patrician Citizen Moderator Emeritus Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Gaming Emeritus

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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    ... and off with their heads!

    One more thing, I found a lot of comfort in taking it easy in real life and I believe we should all be more relaxed and good willed when it comes to our interactions with the Curia, it's just a tiny part of this site and even a tinier part of our lives. I'm not saying this to devalue it, but to put it in the correct perspective. If coming here makes people uncomfortable, stressed or even angry, then there's something wrong with it all, and while we cannot change the nature of a the Curia itself, we could certainly approach it with a lighter spirit and a more positive attitude.

    Life's so short...
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

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