Regarding male/female relationships and the great divide between us & them

[hellas1]

Hi all,

I'm writing this as a question & personal history of what I've learned. Feel free to share.
I'm seeing much more clearly now, that this is a major area of hindrance for the human race.
Big idea, I know......

We are all related. Science says that if we go back 40 generations, we ALL have a common ancestor.

We built this current world by our own collective & individual agreement.

This is certainly true in our relationships with the opposite sex.

Why do we objectify the other sex?
I've seen that it is because we want to gain something from and not commit to, not actually relate deeply to a person who feels, breathes, thinks, has hopes and dreams like us.

Why is there sexual tension?
To me, in America, a large part of conditioning has taken place to sway minds into believing that things equate to life or quality of life, per se. Ex: Power, money, intelligence, fashion, etc. etc.
While I enjoy "things" I DO see that things do not equate to quality of life which to me is meaning IN life.

Why does society not want to change this mode of being?
In my experience, we don't see/perceive anything else as being possible or "doable" in a practical sense or we've been conditioned to accept and not question.

It seems as though an honest, down to earth conversation and mutual understanding is deeply needed between the sexes.

Relating one's self to another is quite a delicate thing & most of us are unwilling to "become delicate" as it were to expose ourselves to another in honesty without pretense.

Thanks,
hellas1

[Poach]

Objectification of the sexes (in our modern concept) came about largely due to two reasons:

Firstly, looking at history you will see Women only gained equality fairly recently. This era has still not entirely vanished, we're still adjusting to the effects. Indeed, only in advanced countries are women even supposedly considered equal, many places on Earth still actively discriminate in favour of men. This does nothing to help the phasing out the activity of objectifying women.

Secondly, modern television and fashion even in advanced countries actively objectifies women. Their clothes are designed to be revealing, the make-up industry is massive and despite the efforts of lawmakers women still face discrimination in many walks of life.

Essentially, we objectify women because we're brought up in a culture that does it. Though the common feminist response to spew out a ton of anti-male sentiment and blame the lot on us is something I fully disagree with. Women still wear the clothes, put on the make up and get into relationships with guys that are clearly only after one thing.

If they (as a sex as a whole) want to be taken seriously, they (as a sex as a whole) need to start acting seriously.

[Buddhababe]

If they (as a sex as a whole) want to be taken seriously, they (as a sex as a whole) need to start acting seriously.

The first part of your post was insightful. But here you just get ignorant. As a woman, I am serious. And women as a whole are serious. Look at what we have done in the last 100 years or even 40 years.

Men are still in power. Men still make about 30% more than women. Society, even western society, continues to demand women take a back seat to men. If I am a strong determined woman, I am considered a . A man is considered driven and has ambition. If I want to be picky in who I chose to date and be in a relationship with, I am an ice queen or lesbian. If a man is picky, he has taste.

The problem with relationships between the sexes are societies' double standards, for both men and women. A man needs to be strong and macho. If he cries he is a wuss. A woman needs to be dainty and sweet. If she is tough and tall, she is manly and unattractive.

These double standards get in the way of true communication. We are programmed by stereotypes, we forget to communicate of a personal level or soul level. It takes years of self-discipline to deprogram oneself.

You want to change the world and stop objectifying women? Get all of your male friends ( and their friends, and their friends and so on) to stop watching TV, buying video games with scantly clad women and stop watching porn. Money is power. Stop giving them your money and maybe in a few generations, woman and men will be on more equal terms.

[Old_Scratch]

You're really generalizing all men here. The people who objectify women the most are other women. Men don't care if they are model skinny, or wear whatever fashion label, or don't act "womanly", men don't give a about these things. True, men have always, and will always view women as an object of sexual desire, but that is a trait of the human race, probably the most important trait since it drives evolution.

Women feel pressure and objectified because they are showing off to other women. Do you think men care or can even identify if a woman is up to par with the latest fashion and body standards put forth by the magazines and television?

All that being said, women, as with men, should maintain some semblance of good personal appearance and a balanced personality if they are going to attract the opposite sex, but that does not equal "objectifying".

[Silver Guard]

There will always be an us and them mentality to humanity, as there is with any other species. We, unlike many other species, has grown to a state where intraspecies conflict is far more important then interspecies conflict, and herein lies the reason behind the us vs them mentality.

What is different to you has the capacity to have different motives, different desires and different needs to you. And this causes conflict, especially when these things are opposite to your own. When it comes to the human race there are not many destinctions more important then man and woman, and there's the reason behind conflict between the sexes.

Men and woman are different, both mentally and physically, and that's unavoidable. People who say the two are the same and should be treated the same are fooling themselves, both genders has its advantages and disadvantages, for risk of being called a stereotypist two that come to mind is the natural strength of men and the natural empathy of women, the two genders are simply geared in this way. And as such it is only sensible to treat them according to their strengths and weaknesses. More men fill manual labour and leadership positions, more women fill care and therapy positions.

As for the objectifying and sexual tension, of course this exists, and always will, in male/female relations, if the two are both of heterosexual orientation. Again in this case, the two sexes are geared towards sex with acceptable partners, and even in a "lets just be friends" scenario there will be elements of this tension if both individuals finds the other attractive, this is unavoidable, but can be suppressed. We amongst all species has gained that over other species at least, the ability to suppress such natural urges.

You want to change the world and stop objectifying women? Get all of your male friends ( and their friends, and their friends and so on) to stop watching TV, buying video games with scantly clad women and stop watching porn. Money is power. Stop giving them your money and maybe in a few generations, woman and men will be on more equal terms.

Watching TV - Nothing to do with gender equality
Video Games - Again
Scantily clad women - You seem to forget these women are being paid, and are quite happy to do so.
Watching porn - As above, high earning porn states (both male and female, the gay porn industry is huge) earn huge sums.

None of the above things has anything to do with economic equality of sexes, if anything it begins to address the inequality, as women gain far more in these areas then men do. Apart from video games, a domain dominated by male programmers. Again, this is simply due to natural inequality in inclinations in the sexes.

[Buddhababe]

Watching TV - Nothing to do with gender equality
Video Games - Again
Scantily clad women - You seem to forget these women are being paid, and are quite happy to do so.
Watching porn - As above, high earning porn states (both male and female, the gay porn industry is huge) earn huge sums.

Watching TV: Most television shows have female characters which follow the Model/Actress mold of skinny and healthy with clothing options that show much more skin than most women would be comfortable with. This can lead some men to think women are suppose behave, dress and look a specific way.

Video games: there are games which are not too kind to women. And when women are depicted in the games, they seem to have a lot less clothes on than many women wear on the street.

Porn: there are so many studies coming out now about the affect of the INTERNET porn industry and men. One of the consequences of 24/7 porn is men begin to certain behavior from the women in their life. Because of the constant bombardment of women with specific body types (skinny waist, big boobs) they can not seem to be satisfied with a woman who seems less than perfect.

And if all people (not just men) stopped throwing their money to wards these things, there would not be the economic drive to create them. Therefore, limiting the amount of it and the influence of it.

It does not matter how much money one makes in the porn industry. Money is not everything. When I was much younger, I was asked to model for a prestigious Chicago agency. My father would not let me. Why? He said he did not want me to grow up always concerned about body and feel like I needed to be a whore to get somewhere.

The media makes money objectifying men and women. And the list above is only a small sample of places where women are objectified.

And a note on their getting paid and are quite happy about it, the money yes. But do you know any strippers, models and the like? If you do, ask them to honestly tell you how it makes them feel. You might be surprised. Many feel stuck, embarrassed, shameful and like they have no other choice. They feel they are not respected for who they are, just what they look like. Entire industries do that to them, and that is not objectification.

[Poach]

Watching TV: Most television shows have female characters which follow the Model/Actress mold of skinny and healthy with clothing options that show much more skin than most women would be comfortable with. This can lead some men to think women are suppose behave, dress and look a specific way.

Yet the women still wear them. Humans are humans, if they (be that men or the young girls that also watch these programs, which you forgot) see women dressed like this constantly in the media they will see that as the norm. This is not a failing of men, this is business knowing what men like to see.

We cannot change who we are, men are objectified just as often on the TV. You think all men look like or are as classy as the types you see in fashion, deoderant and sports adverts? No, we're not.

Video games: there are games which are not too kind to women. And when women are depicted in the games, they seem to have a lot less clothes on than many women wear on the street.

Women are depicted both favourably and unfairly varying from game to game. Recall the shock and surprise when Samus Aran turned out to be a woman, and not a macho, all conquering superman?

Porn: there are so many studies coming out now about the affect of the INTERNET porn industry and men. One of the consequences of 24/7 porn is men begin to certain behavior from the women in their life. Because of the constant bombardment of women with specific body types (skinny waist, big boobs) they can not seem to be satisfied with a woman who seems less than perfect.

Even feminism can't agree with you there. There's still raging debate on whether porn is a good thing or a bad thing for the sexual liberation of women. Obviously you are of the "bad" camp, though even many feminists would argue against you. Since when did porn only use perfect women anyway? There's some pretty wierd out there...

And if all people (not just men) stopped throwing their money to wards these things, there would not be the economic drive to create them. Therefore, limiting the amount of it and the influence of it.

I agree, not just men. Women do it too, yet complain about it at the same time. You talked of double standards?

It does not matter how much money one makes in the porn industry. Money is not everything. When I was much younger, I was asked to model for a prestigious Chicago agency. My father would not let me. Why? He said he did not want me to grow up always concerned about body and feel like I needed to be a whore to get somewhere.

The media makes money objectifying men and women. And the list above is only a small sample of places where women are objectified.

Again, feminism would argue both for and against your father. Is it not also marginalising women to forbid them from certain lines of work because of their bodies? You can't blame the modelling agency for requiring perfection, they need it to sell. The public wouldn't buy clothes they see advertised on an obese person, it doesn't make humanity look very smart but the public wouldn't and you know it.

And a note on their getting paid and are quite happy about it, the money yes. But do you know any strippers, models and the like? If you do, ask them to honestly tell you how it makes them feel. You might be surprised. Many feel stuck, embarrassed, shameful and like they have no other choice. They feel they are not respected for who they are, just what they look like. Entire industries do that to them, and that is not objectification.

In the US, perhaps. But in Europe we have a different story. In Germany especially porn stars, both male and female, are respected for their work and aren't ashamed about it.

Also, again, feminism itself is divided over whether or not stripping and the like is a pro or con for the advancement of women. Feel free to join a feminist website dealing with the issue to gain a full working knowledge of it, you won't find it on TWC.

Your very name, buddhababe isn't very feminist-friendly either, is it?


To conclude, you make many valid points but aren't being objective. There are two sides to all of these arguments and, in most cases, women are equally to blame for perpetuating the issue. Unless the majority of women become active and move against the issues, they will remain. As long as teenage girls are ok with wearing make up and mini skirts you're not going to win, because there just isn't the drive in womankind as a whole to stamp it out.

It's not like the evil men of the world are actively causing these issues, you certainly can't blame it all on us and I feel the current amount of blame we get is still unfair. We force nothing, womankind simply isn't unified enough to force the change in the status quo.

[Silver Guard]

Watching TV: Most television shows have female characters which follow the Model/Actress mold of skinny and healthy with clothing options that show much more skin than most women would be comfortable with. This can lead some men to think women are suppose behave, dress and look a specific way.

What men expect and what women do are hardly one and the same. A man who stays indoors all day and watches porn and then emerges into the outside world to proposition a women with "ooo, i like to do u ard!" isn't going to go down too well. Of course this is how women appear in TV, the same is done with men, divided between hunks and cute boys in almost every show. Think of disney, creating unrealisitic expectations of men as "princes in shining armour". Just because they're on TV in one way doesn't necessitate women acting in that way. They can grow a backbone and tell guys to shove it.

Video games: there are games which are not too kind to women. And when women are depicted in the games, they seem to have a lot less clothes on than many women wear on the street.

It's a man's market, how many women play video games? Video games are produced with the intention to sell, and these are sellable characteristics. Again, no socially adjusted man actually expects women to saunter around in bikinis and numchucks with boobs big enough to topple them over. It's just fairly amusing to have on screen.

Porn: there are so many studies coming out now about the affect of the INTERNET porn industry and men. One of the consequences of 24/7 porn is men begin to certain behavior from the women in their life. Because of the constant bombardment of women with specific body types (skinny waist, big boobs) they can not seem to be satisfied with a woman who seems less than perfect.

I don't know what world you're living in, but women always, and will always, have higher expectations of men than men do of women, all be it in different ways. Women are more picky, more judgemental and more restrained when it comes to the opposite sex than men. Men watching porn may highten their expectations, but that doesn't mean that men only lust over the most perfect of women!

It does not matter how much money one makes in the porn industry. Money is not everything. When I was much younger, I was asked to model for a prestigious Chicago agency. My father would not let me. Why? He said he did not want me to grow up always concerned about body and feel like I needed to be a whore to get somewhere.

I have two friends in modelling, one is naturally a size 6, and no matter what she eats she never ventures above that. Lucky girl, but also quite enjoying the money she gains from part time modelling, no stress and very good pay. It's not exactly like that for all. My other friend, a size 14, models wedding dresses, even whilst she was pregnant, hardly much stress there either. Depends who you model for and who you are.

The media makes money objectifying men and women. And the list above is only a small sample of places where women are objectified.

Yes? The media objectifies everything, from people to morality and back again. That is what people want from them. If they didn't, the media wouldn't make money. Unfortunately you are a minority voice. If all women thought like you do this media wouldn't last long, you are the majority after all.

And a note on their getting paid and are quite happy about it, the money yes. But do you know any strippers, models and the like? If you do, ask them to honestly tell you how it makes them feel. You might be surprised. Many feel stuck, embarrassed, shameful and like they have no other choice. They feel they are not respected for who they are, just what they look like. Entire industries do that to them, and that is not objectification.

Look above for models. One of my best friends is a pole dancer, another two are bar girls who's uniform is fairly small. The former has the time of her life every night (during the holidays, she's a student), the latter have split opinions, they might not be fans of the outfits, but they enjoy the attention and the power it gives them. The lust of men is an easy thing to control and take advantage of, ask any girl on a night out, half of them will be drinking drinks bought for them.

[Ludicus]

for risk of being called a stereotypist... And as such it is only sensible to treat them according to their strengths and weaknesses. More men fill... leadership positions

Indeed.
It seems to me that stereotyping toward women has cultural/religious roots.
Where are you from? U.S. ranks 71st in the world for women’s political representation (even Sudan and North Korea surpass U. States)
----
Take a look:
study of people who changed their gender through hormones and surgery, The researchers found that average earnings for female-to-male transgender workers increased slightly following their switch, while average earnings for male-to-female transgender workers fall by nearly one-third.

These findings…illustrate the often hidden and subtle processes that produce gender inequality in workplace outcomes.

[iudas]

Male sexual urges hardly objectify women...

[jankren]

Maybe women should inject themselves with testosterone so they know how it feels to be controlled by the brain down below?

And a note on their getting paid and are quite happy about it, the money yes. But do you know any strippers, models and the like? If you do, ask them to honestly tell you how it makes them feel. You might be surprised. Many feel stuck, embarrassed, shameful and like they have no other choice. They feel they are not respected for who they are, just what they look like. Entire industries do that to them, and that is not objectification.

Imperfect job? WOAH BIG NEWS! NOT!

Anyway, Buddhababe you are extremely biased which is beyond stupid. Im a pro-women who think women make better human beings than men. But many women are just whiners who want everything given to them and blame the men for everything without taking any responsibility.

Instead of telling men to stop watching TV, why dont women stop appearing on TV?

Instead of telling men to stop watching porn, why dont women stop participating in porn?

What is next? Are you gonna defend women cheaters on men too by telling men to stop seducing women so there will be no more woman who cheats?

GOSH WOMAN!

[jankren]

It is harder to become a woman president in USA than in Pakistan.

That speaks volume.

[cfmonkey45]

It is harder to become a woman president in USA than in Pakistan.

That speaks volume.

Palin or Clinton. Which would you prefer?

Moreover, we have a female speaker of the house and several female supreme court justices.

[Phier]

We, (men), objectify women because hot is hot. The sexual urge is based on sex first not a deeper understanding of being.

It won't change substantially because we are what we are, what our genes make us, and there is no place where are genes are more strong in behavior than sex drive.

And really it all works out just fine. I've been married happily for 12 years. The older you get and the more experience you have the easier it is to be in control of the whole issue.

[Carpathian Wolf]

We, (men), objectify women because hot is hot. The sexual urge is based on sex first not a deeper understanding of being.

It won't change substantially because we are what we are, what our genes make us, and there is no place where are genes are more strong in behavior than sex drive.

And really it all works out just fine. I've been married happily for 12 years. The older you get and the more experience you have the easier it is to be in control of the whole issue.

Speak for your pendulum swinging post puritan americana mentality case.

[jankren]

Palin or Clinton. Which would you prefer?

Moreover, we have a female speaker of the house and several female supreme court justices.

Clinton is better than McCain, but if it was Clinton instead of Obama, Americans would probably vote for McCain.

[Carpathian Wolf]

double post

[Poach]

Are we looking at this issue purely from a US standpoint? If we are then I quit the debate, I'm European!

[removeduser_487563287433]

Oh my God, Hellas, stop spewing this constant stream of misogynistic bollocks and go buy your mother something nice for Christmas.

[Kjertesvein]

From an historical perspective, non christian woman in northern europe, over a 1000 years ago had rights other woman today could even dream of. So please everyone, stop pretending like this is the pandoras box or something,

If buddha feel 'you' are not respected, then you know where to go.