New York Times; Israel admits harvesting the organs of corpses without consent of any kind

[Lugotorix]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009...ting.html?_r=1
Hey, Lug here, I don't use the Mudpit often, but this article really begged mention. For those who don't have time to read the article, this was happening to families on both sides without consent, usually the corneas (they would glue shut the eyes) or the epidermis for burn victims, but included most vital organs. Not sure where to file this outside of the Goldstone thread. I'm glad the Israeli army and research team have allegedly have stopped this practice. Just find it terribly ironic and sad that alot of people in the United States came under investigation in the first place for support of a free Palestinian state while this heinous, ghoulish, dystopian crime was going on.
-Lug

[Red_legged_devils]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009...ting.html?_r=1
Hey, Lug here, I don't use the Mudpit often, but this article really begged mention. For those who don't have time to read the article, this was happening to families on both sides without consent, usually the corneas (they would glue shut the eyes) or the epidermis for burn victims, but included most vital organs. Not sure where to file this outside of the Goldstone thread. I'm glad the Israeli army and research team have allegedly have stopped this practice. Just find it terribly ironic and sad that alot of people in the United States came under investigation in the first place for support of a free Palestinian state while this heinous, ghoulish, dystopian crime was going on.
-Lug

China does the very same thing, they have moble kill vans, if a rich person needs a transplant from out side of china, they pick out a prisoner and kill them as they land at the airport Isnt that Awsome? LOL

[Georgy Zhukov]

dead bodies, including Palestinians

Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

This thread makes it seem that the this organization specifically targeted Palestinians.

[danzig]

This thread makes it seem that the this organization specifically targeted Palestinians.

Probably because it was the intention. Thread title needs to be corrected given the op's attempt to misrepresent the article..

[Justinian]

You make it sound as if this was a national policy instead of one group who did it to everyone, not just Palestinians...

[antaeus]

You make it sound as if this was a national policy instead of one group who did it to everyone, not just Palestinians...

tbh, it doesn't really matter whether it was done to palestinians or israelis... or as is the case - both. it doesnt make it any less shocking...

it's possibly slightly more shocking that it was done to palestinians as well because they are part of a vaguely separate autonomous state, making it possible that it's not just a breach of israeli law, but a breach of international law

[danzig]

tbh, it doesn't really matter whether it was done to palestinians or israelis... or as is the case - both. it doesnt make it any less shocking...

It does matter because it is a general shock impacting all vs trying to make it a race based thing. Given the relationship between Palenstians and Israel it matters alot.

it's possibly slightly more shocking that it was done to palestinians as well because they are part of a vaguely separate autonomous state, making it possible that it's not just a breach of israeli law, but a breach of international law

Agreed but the simple facts of the story is enough rather then singling out something in an attempt demonize a state. I mean Israel admits to harvesting organs of Palestinians is alot worse then Israel admits to harvesting organs of everyone because Israelis would be just as outraged by the story.

[Vulpex]

These people were also not killed for their organs, but deceaced of all groups of people. Killed for organs is just allegation of a swedish newspaper. Seems they just wanted to get transplants, no matter what. Of course is no matter of LOLS, still.

[Maverick]

"The Channel 2 report said that in the 1990s, [Israeli] forensic specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers."

Abridged for European readers:

"The report said that in the 1990s, [Israeli] forensic specialists at Abu Kabir harvested... Palestinians and foreign workers"

[Justinian]

It's horrible, but this is ONE organization and ONE group of scientists stealing from corpses of everyone indiscriminately, it's not some evil state racist murder and harvesting campaign.

[alhoon]

it's not some evil state racist murder and harvesting campaign like OP would have us believe.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009...ting.html?_r=1
Hey, Lug here, I don't use the Mudpit often, but this article really begged mention. For those who don't have time to read the article, this was happening to families on both sides without consent...

He seems pretty straightforward to me and sincere. He mentioned it was happening to casualties in both sides.

That China does something similar doesn't make it right for the Israeli. It's a hineous, outrageous act and it should be punished accordingly.

[Vulpex]

Talk about blind spot, i totally missed undelined "on both sides" of OP.
Another casualty of news like this is peoples willingness to donate willingly for transplants, and we know how needed they are allways.

[Lugotorix]

I didnt mean to be misleading in the headline, and thanks Alhoon for referring to the OP itself that I had

written. The reason why I wrote the headline that way was to emphasize that some of the people being

for lack of a better word, mutilated, after death, whether or not that death was violent, have their own

governing body, limited sovreignty, and are recognized by much of the international community, whose

leaders would not condone the use of their tissues and organs to be used for the state
(for which the organization operates legally.)

I also didnt mean to make it a partisan issue, but unfortunately it is one, as these researchers were working with the full cooperation of the Israeli Army.

The organs and tissues harvested this way are not going to Palestinians, they're going to Israelis.

And yes, this is in no means a validation of the Swedish findings, but further evidence of

malpractice, and what amounts to war crimes.

I'll gladly change the header though.

-Lug

[Georgy Zhukov]

The organs and tissues harvested this way are not going to Palestinians, they're going to Israelis.

Abu Kabir is an Israeli forensic research laboratory located in the Abu Kabir neighborhood of Tel Aviv, Israel.

The reason why I wrote the headline that way was to emphasize that some of the people being for lack of a better word, mutilated, after death, whether or not that death was violent, have their own governing body, limited sovreignty, and are recognized by much of the international community, whose

So of course the other people affected by this don't matter at all.

[Valentin the II]

Then make a law about it or something and do it with some dignity, telling people that get a chance to life where the chance comes from, name and all, and give support to the family. Else it's graverobing.

Well of course there is such a law, and if you've read my previous post you would have known that Israel has a huge shortage of organs for transplants (precisely because people don't want to donate and the government respects their decision).

All I'm saying is that I would not object if the donation of organs became mandatory.




PS: I love how syriana rushes in guns blazing without actually comprehending the story, gets destroyed and then starts nitpicking random posts like nothing happened.
That's just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Syriana]

PS: I love how syriana rushes in guns blazing without actually comprehending the story, gets destroyed and then starts nitpicking random posts like nothing happened.

I love it how people like to boast about how someone has been "destroyed" in an argument as an infantile method of self-gratification.

The only detail of the story which I misunderstood was that the newspaper claimed that the IDF murdered Palestinians for their organs; the fact is, they still illegally harvested organs - which is, so far as I am aware, a breach of the Geneva Conventions - and then proceeded to deny those charges when they were raised, going as far to demand the Swedish government to have the story to be suppressed and condemning them when they cited freedom of speech.

I didn't even notice Phier's post until I saw this thread a second time. But I was obviously running away and hiding, because my ego couldn't handle the strain of accepting I was wrong about something - and Christ knows, its not like I would have to leave the thread to, y'know, eat or sleep or perform a litany of any other activities.

And of course, by "nitpicking random posts" you actually mean "making points for an argument which goes against your viewpoint".

So yeah, I do love it when those in need of an ego boost come in all guns blazing and directly targeting a poster rather than arguing.

That's just arguing for the sake of arguing.

What the Hell do you think a political forum is for?

[alhoon]

All I'm saying is that I would not object if the donation of organs became mandatory.

That I was commenting about. How the mandatory donation could become implemented in society. Since many people find it offending to have organs taken from their perished loved ones, the law should be made in a way that the dead take credit and the society should invest resources in promoting the pros of such a law.

Also, since in some religions the body must be whole, the "mandatory" thing shouldn't be strict. I.e you file a form for free and then the goverment doesn't take the organs from your perished family member etc. At first, most people would opt for this, but with time and lives saved, the public opinion could change and most people would agree to organ donation.

[Lugotorix]

So of course the other people affected by this don't matter at all.

Abu Kabir (Arabic: ابو كبير‎) was a satellite village of Jaffa founded by Egyptians following Ibrahim Pasha's 1832 defeat of Turkish forces in Ottoman era Palestine. After Israel's establishment in 1948, this area became Giv'at Herzl (Hebrew: גבעת הרצל‎, lit. Herzl's hill), a neighborhood in Tel Aviv-Yafo, though the name Abu Kabir (Hebrew: אבו כביר‎) is still used.

Situated on the main road from Jaffa to Jerusalem, Abu Kabir was first known as Sakenat Abu Kabir. Located to the east of Jaffa, it was separated from it by gardens and orchards until Jaffa expanded such that Abu Kabir came to a border neighborhood of the city. The Sabil Abu Nabbut was situated in the gardens nearby, as were tombs discovered by locals and identified as an ancient Jewish necropolis by a French archaeologist who visited Abu Kabir in the late 19th century. The gardens would turn into a marshy lake in the winter season known as al-Bassa.

Following the killing of three Jewish passengers by a group of Arabs in Abu Kabir on 1 December 1947, the Haganah and Irgun attacked, blowing up a home and killing two people. Further attacks by these forces on the village followed, causing further casualties. In March 1948, after many of Abu Kabir's inhabitants had left, houses were blown up and the neighborhood was shelled. Demolition of Abu Kabir was completed on March 31, 1948. Today, the name Abu Kabir continues to be used to refer to the area and a number of important Israeli institutions located there.

Though I'm sure the Pawtucket Native Americans are thriving from organ transplants of Rhode Islanders.


I'm not saying they don't matter at all, if anything this is a betrayal to the Israeli people by their military, I'm saying it's an occupying force stripping occupied bodies of organs with cooperation of the occupying army, which is taboo to say the least, and heinous in my opinion, as stated in the article

[Georgy Zhukov]

Its a research institute, not an organ bank.

I'm not saying they don't matter at all, if anything this is a betrayal to the Israeli people by their military, I'm saying it's an occupying force stripping occupied bodies of organs with cooperation of the occupying army, which is taboo to say the least, and heinous in my opinion, as stated in the article

well then why wasn't that in the op . . .

[Ivan6]

Since the organs are for the benefit of Israelis, they are not going to be careless about Israeli lives, but they are going to be less concerned about Arab lives if they can benefit from their death.
So it should not be allowed.