Who still has a message for germany? (Nazi Hunting)

[Banned]

Five years ago, a Nazi-hunting organization referred to as Simon Wiesenthal Center, devised a scheme called Operation Last Chance in order to hunt down the remaining Nazi war criminals who were responsible for the holocaust. It rolled out well in countries like Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, and then in Austria, Poland and Romania. After some time the project was launched in Germany, Hungary, Belarus and Ukraine. It was progressed by a media campaign through newspapers and offered potential informants a reward of $10,000 for any information that would result in the conviction of a Nazi criminal. Many signs and warnings were issues but it wasn't clear whether they were concrete enough to make it to court, let alone result in conviction.

The operation had mixed results and the elderly Nazi criminals who could have been prosecuted a long time ago are now eluding justice while on the brink of natural death. But only a few are left and they are in their 90s. Recently, Josef Scheungraber, a former Nazi soldier got life imprisonment for his war crimes.

Now the question is, whether it's necessary or not. Do you think they deserve sentence for their crimes? Can't simply ignore the mass massacre performed by Nazis during World War II, can you? Besides, they are way too old to even go to a court for hearing verdict, let alone spend the remaining weeks of life in prison. Would you rather show mercy?

[Nimthill]

Let them go. Being a pragmatist, I don't see the point of spending assets on chasing down old men in order to place them into prison for their final days.

Besides, technically they're not criminals. Laws on war, genocide and the like were only established after the second world war. They simply followed the orders of their democratically elected government.

And I think we got all the big ones anyway.

[Monarchist]

I think it's a waste of money and time. Eichmann was the last meaningful catch, and Mengele is long dead. Höss was hanged in his own camp, Heydrich died during the war, and Hitler is away. There is no one left to catch, and the "small fries" (God forgive me for reducing any murderers to "small fries" and "big fries") are in their octogenarian years anyway. They will die soon, and only God will have His revenge on them, or grant them clemency. Whatever they deserve shall be taken from them or given to them after death. Even better, if there is no God they'll just rot in the dark ground like anyone else. In the end, it's win-win for the poor souls who suffered under those monsters.

[Helm]

Following orders is a fairly weak excuse, there were plenty of other Germans who wouldn't followed those orders and so weren't given that particular job. And war criminals should still be held accountable for their actions regardless of how long in the past they carried out those actions.

[Azog 150]

I think they should be tried and punished. If nothing else it sends out a clear message.

[Helm]

I would kind of like to see whoever dropped the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki tried and punished as well, that was uncalled for.

[Monarchist]

I would kind of like to see whoever dropped the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki tried and punished as well, that was uncalled for.

Dropping the bombs was uncalled for, but called for. Far more human beings would have died in the invasion of the Japanese islands than died in the bombing. Necessary evils are necessary, and I mean that sincerely.

That really isn't germane to the conversation here, though, is it?

[Helm]

Dropping the bombs was uncalled for, but called for. Far more human beings would have died in the invasion of the Japanese islands than died in the bombing. Necessary evils are necessary, and I mean that sincerely.

They still used WMD to intentionally kill civilians. It's a warcrime by todays standards.

[Monarchist]

They still used WMD to intentionally kill civilians. It's a warcrime by todays standards.

I don't respect today's standards, so there we are, I suppose. The universal standards of today's U.N.-morality really chill me to the bone, to be honest. Today's standards say it's O.K. to sit and listen to Robert Mugabe, that murderer, in the U.N., but that Israel is pure evil, for example. Truman did a good thing in dropping those bombs. Hopefully the international politburo C.I.A. U.N. E.U. doesn't see my posts, or I'll be put in prison for advocating "terrorism".

I say let God deal with the 80-100 year old Nazis, if they even are Nazis. Wiesenthal laughs at them from wherever he is.

[Helm]

I don't respect today's standards, so there we are, I suppose. The universal standards of today's U.N.-morality really chill me to the bone, to be honest. Today's standards say it's O.K. to sit and listen to Robert Mugabe, that murderer, in the U.N., but that Israel is pure evil, for example. Truman did a good thing in dropping those bombs. Hopefully the international politburo C.I.A. U.N. E.U. doesn't see my posts, or I'll be put in prison for advocating "terrorism".

They may have shortened the war by a few months and quite possibly will have saved the lives of a few thousand US troops in the process. But I don't feel it was something that was absolutely 100% necessary to do. A demonstration of power to the USSR may also have been a motivation.

I say let God deal with the 80-100 year old Nazis

I'm guessing all they would need to do to get of the hook is repent their sins to Jesus much the same as everyone else.

[Stark of Winterfell]

They still used WMD to intentionally kill civilians. It's a warcrime by todays standards.

Would you try the Allies for the firebombings as well? But you are right, the Allies weren't completely good, they did seek to destroy enemies by breaking their morale through strategic bombing, which meant destroying cities and killing civilians. If they had lost they probably would've been persecuted for it. But then again, by the time strategic bombing had come about the Axis had already shown their disregard for enemy civilians. No major power was good to civilians in WW2.

[Banned]

I would kind of like to see whoever dropped the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki tried and punished as well, that was uncalled for.

Paul Tibbets, a brigadier general of USAF who was responsible for dropping "Little Boy" on Hiroshima died two years ago. And his counterpart, Charles Sweeney, who dropped "Fat Man" on Nagasaki died five years ago, methinks. It's worth mentioning that both of them remained in their respective positions in the army after the war.

[Knight of Heaven]

I would kind of like to see whoever dropped the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki tried and punished as well, that was uncalled for.

I wont call the Nuclear bombs a genocide, thecnicaly speaking.
If you had mention, the genocide of the indians in north america it would make more sence,or even more recent the Guantanamo camp and the torture metods used by CIA and US troops on prisoners. That was more logic. Or the abuses of Troops on civilians in Iraq or Afganistan, for instance.

Even so its alll besides the point. The war criminals should be prosecuted and brought to trial, off course, however at this time wont make any diference i belive, it is a waste of resources chasing 90 years old man. Why people dont focus on the present, there is plenty of people and governements violating human rights on a grand scale arround the world. Democratic and non democratic i might add.

[Gromovnik]

No mercy.

[SonOfOdin]

Let conscience destroy them internally, they don't deserve to die. They deserve to live with the guilt

[blackwatersix]

*sigh* This is a matter for another debate.

[Barry Goldwater]

Forget it. Let them rot, it'd be a waste of time & money. Anyone still left over probably doesn't have much time left anyway.

They still used WMD to intentionally kill civilians. It's a warcrime by todays standards.

Judging historical figures & events by modern standards is a big no-no.

They may have shortened the war by a few months and quite possibly will have saved the lives of a few thousand US troops in the process. But I don't feel it was something that was absolutely 100% necessary to do. A demonstration of power to the USSR may also have been a motivation.

A few thousand?!?!

The estimated cost in American lives for the invasion was one million, with 31000 dead in the first 30 days. 500,000 purple hearts were produced in anticipation of American casualties. And we're not even covering the millions of Japanese dead, military and civilian alike. What, would you rather we continue firebombing the country?

Also, the nukes shortened the war by at least a year. I don't think invading two islands, defended by over a million men, is as easy as it may have been for us in a Total War game.

The Japanese were preparing for their last "honourable" last stand against the invaders armed with antique firearms, swords and sharpened bamboo sticks at that point but they knew that they had been well and truly beaten. I heard there were even attempts to negotiate a truce before the bombs were dropped.

I see you conveniently forgot to mention Japan had over a million soldiers left to defend the home islands. There were almost a million on Kyushu to fight off Olympic and over half a million on Honshu. We're not even counting the militias that would have been raised to bolster the defenders.

Oh, and one last thing - Hiroshima & Nagasaki were both legitimate targets, Hiroshima was a military-industrial center and Nagasaki was a shipbuilding center.

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_...e_for_Downfall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall - before you point out that this is Wikipedia, allow me to direct you to the list of notes, references & links at the bottom of the page.

EDIT: Eh, I'd better shelve this stuff. I don't think this is the right topic for a debate on the atomic bombings. Besides, we had a massive thread on this a while back in the VV.

[Helm]

I don't think there is anyway to know for sure just what the toll of a conventional invasion would have been or whether those nuclear bombs ended up saving more lives than they ended. But I'm still very much against the idea of deliberately targeting civilians and non-combatants purely on principal, those people didn't deserve what happened to them, they were murdered for the greater good. I guess it's one of those morally grey areas.

[Manco]

that. I don't care how old those sons of es are, they get to rot in prison.
Some crimes can't be forgiven nor forgotten by anyone, and the Nazis sure as hell committed a of those.
Call it revenge all you want, they deserve punishment. And evading that punishment for over 60 years doesn't change .

[Fiyenyaa]

that. I don't care how old those sons of es are, they get to rot in prison.
Some crimes can't be forgiven nor forgotten by anyone, and the Nazis sure as hell committed a of those.
Call it revenge all you want, they deserve punishment. And evading that punishment for over 60 years doesn't change .

Pretty much this.
You shouldn't be able to get away with something forever just because you have done so for 60 years. If they're still alive, they're fair game.