How is original sin NOT a load of bollocks?

[Strelok]

I'm referring to Adam and Eve in the Christian Bible.

This is a serious question and I would like the opinions of everyone else, mostly from Christians but everyones opinions would be nice, too.

This is how I usually tell the tale of Adam and Eve:

-God creates Humanity (most people believe a God to be omnipotent and omniscient, if so, he knows full well what type of beings they would be and exactly everything that they will do afterwards).

-So, if knowing what they will do, he creates Adam and Eve without the knowledge of good and evil. Then he tells them it is bad if they eat an apple from the tree of knowledge and not to do it.

-If they have no knowledge of good and evil, how would they know that the decision is supposed to be wrong?

-They eat the apple, something that God would already know would happen (if your belief defines him as omniscient) and so he would punish his creation for this action, but also trends very much for having something he never created them with (not knowing that eating the apple would be wrong) and for such an action is something he already knew they were going to do anyways (unless you believe God is just an advanced being who is not omniscient).

-Then all offspring of our race bear the burden and the repurcussions of this infectious 'sin'.

-He then sends his son to Earth, who is also himself (metaphorically?) named Jesus and then sacrifices himself/his son on a cross after about 30 years lifespan. Then, the sacrifice makes the original sin forgivable/redeemed(?)/somedifference(?) and now all other sins can be forgiven if we follow Jesus and his teachings (correct?).

[Bwaho]

pretty retarded isn't it?

[Strelok]

pretty retarded isn't it?

Yes, that is my more direct opinion on the matter.

[Enemy of the State]

pretty retarded isn't it?

SILENCE! Do not use logic. BELIEVE.

[Ellin Athinaios]

SILENCE! Do not use logic. BELIEVE.

[Monarchist]

God isn't really fair, is He? That's just too bad. You atheists are so obsessed with forcing fairness on the secular world that you forget the rather important fact of life: it just isn't fair. God has an overarching plan, and it doesn't really matter what He does to fulfill it. Even if God were a lying, evil, hypocritical dictator... so what? It's still His Cosmos, and if you don't follow His rules you're screwed.

[Strelok]

God isn't really fair, is He?

But the criticism on the matter is not all on a matter of fairness.

You atheists are so obsessed with forcing fairness on the secular world

Well, that's not an assumption about a whole group of people based on a few peoples opinions or anything.

That you forget the rather important fact of life: it just isn't fair.

If life isn't fair, and God isn't fair, how does that make it less credible to call out something for being blatantly unfair?

God has an overarching plan

Do you know that for a fact?

and it doesn't really matter what He does to fulfill it.

Really? How does it not matter? If it makes us suffer, it matters to us, at least.

Even if God were a lying, evil, hypocritical dictator... so what? It's still His Cosmos, and if you don't follow His rules you're screwed.

That'd be too much of a pessimistic world view for me. . Though, that doesn't stop me from complaining about it. It's like living in a country that is ruled by a lying, evil, hypocritical dictator and not doing anything about it. What's the point in just settling for the way things appear to be, why not want and try to achieve better?

Even God can't test people without causing them pain.

There is no need for God to test anything since he knows the outcome of everything. By definition, a God is omniscient.

[Monarchist]

Well, that's not an assumption about a whole group of people based on a few peoples opinions or anything.

Of course it is. I never said that I don't use stereotypes to characterise those I disagree with.

If life isn't fair, and God isn't fair, how does that make it less credible to call out something for being blatantly unfair?

I haven't said that God is unfair, just that life is; life, that is, which takes place on Earth. It isn't "less credible" to point unfairness out. I never said that! I just want to give you the opposing view.

Do you know that for a fact?

It is the only thing I can possibly know for a fact: if He created the Universe, there was a reason. That is a plan, isn't it?

Really? How does it not matter? If it makes us suffer, it matters to us, at least.

God doesn't seem to be in it just for us, though, does He? People are so obsessed with asking that God grant them X, Y, or Z through prayer, or some pleasure through His intercession. Why? We're so greedy and Earth-centered that we want all our happiness here, not elsewhere. The thing you seem to have missed is that in Christianity's view of things, suffering is the ultimate point of this life. God never said you're in for an easy ride, or that life is for happiness, fairness, or calm. The whole point is to get beyond this unhappy and unsettled place to the higher plane.

That'd be too much of a pessimistic world view for me. . Though, that doesn't stop me from complaining about it. It's like living in a country that is ruled by a lying, evil, hypocritical dictator and not doing anything about it. What's the point in just settling for the way things appear to be, why not want and try to achieve better?

1. It's not pessimistic at all; it's life-affirming, God-affirming, and absolute morality-affirming. When there is one being to tell us what is right, then that's what is right. Calling it 'pessimistic' doesn't make sense to me. 2. No, it isn't like living in a country that is ruled by a dictator, because God can't be overthrown. My point with that remark is simply that God isn't subject to revolutions by mortals. You don't need to be a theologian to know that, or even to imagine that. 3. He is completely timeless, space-less, and infinite... why should He be open to an overthrow or "improvement"? You just don't want to accept a firm morality as defined by Him. If something is set in stone; indeed, set more than in stone, but in every atom, it can't possibly be "improved". What I am saying is that God's will is right and wrong, as it were, and that it cannot be changed except by God.

You might want to explain to us why, exactly, does an omnipotent and omniscient being need to "test" anything...

Also, the idea of being a lab rat isn't exactly the most appealing you know. Might want to work on *that* sales pitch.

Why should God give a damn what "appeals" to us? Public Relations firms were not extant in human society until the 1920's. You're applying modern expectations and values to a timeless being. P.R. firms will die away, just as any other thing will die away, in time.

[Ciabhán]

It is the only thing I can possibly know for a fact: if He created the Universe, there was a reason. That is a plan, isn't it?

What if the extent of his reason/plan was just to create it, because he could? Nothing further. He made it, then he had a pint and a sandwich and went on with his normal 'life'. He left it stand in his hobby room for a few millenia until he got married and had kids. Since he needed the hobby room for a nursery he tossed all the junk into the storage shed and there it sits buried under that pile of junk, forgotten, because he never had any real purpose for it.

[Cornelius Plautus]

Do you know that for a fact?

In religion, very little is factual, and when debating the plan of one whose existance itself is question, it would be near impossible to deal in absolutes...

[iudas]

God isn't really fair, is He? That's just too bad. You atheists are so obsessed with forcing fairness on the secular world that you forget the rather important fact of life: it just isn't fair. God has an overarching plan, and it doesn't really matter what He does to fulfill it. Even if God were a lying, evil, hypocritical dictator... so what? It's still His Cosmos, and if you don't follow His rules you're screwed.

I guess you need to be a twisted person to honestly believe such a thing.

[Monarchist]

I guess you need to be a twisted person to honestly believe such a thing.

I don't believe one does, to be perfectly honest. If the situation is such that you can't change the rules, you can't escape from them, and you can never re-cast them by overthrowing the one who made them, why not just accept them? It's either that, or go to Hell. That's the whole point, isn't it? Atheists just don't seem to accept the idea that God's morality is the only one beside Satan's. You choose the former and live, or you choose the latter and die. For philosophical purposes, let's say that neither of them are true or real: you still have to admit that you'd prefer the dictator who will take care of you forever over the one who will torture you forever. It can't be undone, so why moan about it all the time?

House M.D., I'm afraid we'll just have to split in disagreement. You've managed to split my replies up so many times that it would take hours just to add QUOTE marks to your answers. I just don't have time to reply to all those things, so let me just say that I respect your curiosity and arguments. We will never, ever agree.

[Banana Jelly]

God isn't really fair, is He? That's just too bad. You atheists are so obsessed with forcing fairness on the secular world that you forget the rather important fact of life: it just isn't fair. God has an overarching plan, and it doesn't really matter what He does to fulfill it. Even if God were a lying, evil, hypocritical dictator... so what? It's still His Cosmos, and if you don't follow His rules you're screwed.

That's mostly explained even for Islam

Islam is mostly, live life hard and you will be rewarded.

Like school.

Work hard in school and live a better life when your older making some cash.

[jankren]

God isn't really fair, is He? That's just too bad. You atheists are so obsessed with forcing fairness on the secular world that you forget the rather important fact of life: it just isn't fair. God has an overarching plan, and it doesn't really matter what He does to fulfill it. Even if God were a lying, evil, hypocritical dictator... so what? It's still His Cosmos, and if you don't follow His rules you're screwed.

What a sad god you are worshipping.

[Denny Crane!]

Not exactly the god of love that is described is it, or compassion. Or is that just a PR attempt.

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

Not exactly the god of love that is described is it, or compassion. Or is that just a PR attempt.

Even God can't test people without causing them pain.

[Watchman]

Even God can't test people without causing them pain.

You might want to explain to us why, exactly, does an omnipotent and omniscient being need to "test" anything...

Also, the idea of being a lab rat isn't exactly the most appealing you know. Might want to work on *that* sales pitch.

[blackwatersix]

You might want to explain to us why, exactly, does an omnipotent and omniscient being need to "test" anything...

Also, the idea of being a lab rat isn't exactly the most appealing you know. Might want to work on *that* sales pitch.

Because He gave us free will out of His love for us. We are not pre-destined for anything, the capacity for change is there.

[Watchman]

Because He gave us free will out of His love for us. We are not pre-destined for anything, the capacity for change is there.

Paradox here, you know.
One I've never seen acceptably explained by a believer.

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

You might want to explain to us why, exactly, does an omnipotent and omniscient being need to "test" anything...

Also, the idea of being a lab rat isn't exactly the most appealing you know. Might want to work on *that* sales pitch.

It isn't a sales pitch, I'm not trying to convert anyone. I couldn't care less whether you believe in the ice-cream Wombat gods, it's your life.

God created humanity in order to have something in which he did not have direct control. Christianity very clearly states that the whole point of creation was that we were free to come to God if we chose, and free to leave him if we chose. Watching his beings going about their business without direct input was why God created us.

It's like watching a movie. If you had the power to always change the movie so it could be whatever you wanted, would you never wait till you watch the movie through normally?

As to being a lab rat, well, sorry to disappoint you. I hope you find the concept of permanent death far more appealing.