Swordsmith Guild?

[Stephan de St. Omer]

Hello friends in Steel,

in earlier game versions commonly known as vanilla hell the swordsmith guild improved weapons and the unit cards displayed a sword icon to make notice of that weapon upgrade which made melee attack stats better.

Now the guild confers experience to the units which only result in a moderate melee attack stat increase at least as it seems. And no sword icon.

Is there a way to turn this effect back to weapon upgrades without creating too much fuss and requiring not too much knowledge of modding?

And does anyone know why this was changed?

Thanks for your much appreciated help.

Kritic Stephan

[Kawee]

You should be happy. Increased experience is better than improved weapons. Increased experience gives +atk just like improved weapons, but it also gives increased morale, and in the case of archers, accuracy.

[SoulBlade]

The weapon upgrade adds like +4-6 attack, it is very imbalanced, so it was removed.

[Stephan de St. Omer]

The weapon upgrade adds like +4-6 attack, it is very imbalanced, so it was removed.

Why imbalanced? Anyone can get a guild and I deem it right if the ones with the guild have better warriors than the ones without.

Sorry, I am not much into stats but depending on units there are attack stats there that show a much higher difference in attack than 4-6. And shouldn't Total War be imbalanced? Or what are the "higher" consequences I might not get?

Kritic Stephan

[Black_ice_Spain]

Why imbalanced? Anyone can get a guild and I deem it right if the ones with the guild have better warriors than the ones without.

Sorry, I am not much into stats but depending on units there are attack stats there that show a much higher difference in attack than 4-6. And shouldn't Total War be imbalanced? Or what are the "higher" consequences I might not get?

Kritic Stephan

player vs AI its the key i think

[Caesar Clivus]

The swordsmith's guild gave +1 damage initially. Higher levels of the guild gave higher bonuses.

Why imbalanced? Anyone can get a guild and I deem it right if the ones with the guild have better warriors than the ones without.

Sorry, I am not much into stats but depending on units there are attack stats there that show a much higher difference in attack than 4-6. And shouldn't Total War be imbalanced? Or what are the "higher" consequences I might not get?

Kritic Stephan

It's because SS uses RealCombat. RC uses lower combat stats for all units. Whereas in vanilla a unit might have had 15 attack, now it might only have 4. Adding +1 damage to a unit with 15 attack isn't such a big deal, but when a unit has only 4 attack, adding +1 is imbalancing because 1 extra damage is a much bigger proportion of the original attack value (i.e. Adding +1 to 15 is only adding 1/15, whereas adding +1 to 4 is adding 1/4).

Also because RC is based off of real life data, adding damage to attacks makes the whole system unrealistic because you'll have weapons doing more damage than would ever have been possible.

I've got no idea... may be we can ask Caesar Clivus? Where are you? =D

Sorry mate. Sometimes at work I have to do, you know, actual work

[Santeri]

The weapon upgrade adds like +4-6 attack, it is very imbalanced, so it was removed.

+4-6? I thought it gave +1!?
Can't it be moded?

[SoulBlade]

^ Exactly... Peasants with the upgrade may smash any light infantry unit including your lovely english longbowmen in close combat.

[SoulBlade]

I've got no idea... may be we can ask Caesar Clivus? Where are you? =D

[Sokar Rostau]

As a matter of interest, I faced some Byzantine stacks with the sword icon in 6.2 the other day.

[Caesar Clivus]

Seeing as this guild no longer gives bonuses to damage, it doesn't make much sense to keep calling it a Swordsmith's Guild. Maybe because it gives experience now, it should be renamed to something more appropriate to getting extra training.

[King Siegfried]

I always thought it was because it stacks with experience. 7-9 experience adds +3 to the unit's melee attack, and upgrading the weapon adds another +1, so a unit with 6 base attack could suddenly be walking around and hitting with 10 damage. Can't really do much about experience, since it's hard-coded (or so I thought), but you CAN take away the weapon upgrade. Now the Swordsmith's Guild helps do the same thing, just in a different way.

At least, that's the observation I made.

[DeliCiousTZM]

The ingame design of Weapon upgrades was Worth it. besides from 4 to 5 attack isent that big a deal one bronze experience does that aswell the Swordsmith Guild should get its original Uppgrade back. if nothing else but for the Design and our precious Sword icon we all love.

[Caesar Clivus]

The ingame design of Weapon upgrades was Worth it. besides from 4 to 5 attack isent that big a deal one bronze experience does that aswell the Swordsmith Guild should get its original Uppgrade back. if nothing else but for the Design and our precious Sword icon we all love.

I disagree. Yes experience adds damage as well but the effects of experience are hardcoded. We cannot change them, we just have to accept them. The guild's effects, however, can be changed and should be changed to limit any unbalancing factors that cant be changed. And I cant say I ever really cared about the visual weapon upgrades. Give me substance over eye-candy any day

[DeliCiousTZM]

I disagree. Yes experience adds damage as well but the effects of experience are hardcoded. We cannot change them, we just have to accept them. The guild's effects, however, can be changed and should be changed to limit any unbalancing factors that cant be changed. And I cant say I ever really cared about the visual weapon upgrades. Give me substance over eye-candy any day

Would it not be possible to make the guild constructable only in advanced settlements such as Citadels or fortresses ? and all thou i Dont see any real balance for this and 1 attack is not the end of the world. besides i didnt state that Experience should be removed i merely added that for balance 1 Experience rank = 1 attack anyway so a Swordsmith guild giving 1 attack with the upgrade or with rank the only diffrence is the visual is it not ? Then you can always say that Getting 1 Rank experience + 1 Swordsmith guild is imbalanced but then again not all settlements will have swordsmith guilds and if they indeed did wouldent that just be balance with 1 more attack?. in this Case Visual is Substance.

[Velico]

Would it not be possible to make the guild constructable only in advanced settlements such as Citadels or fortresses ? and all thou i Dont see any real balance for this and 1 attack is not the end of the world. besides i didnt state that Experience should be removed i merely added that for balance 1 Experience rank = 1 attack anyway so a Swordsmith guild giving 1 attack with the upgrade or with rank the only diffrence is the visual is it not ? Then you can always say that Getting 1 Rank experience + 1 Swordsmith guild is imbalanced but then again not all settlements will have swordsmith guilds and if they indeed did wouldent that just be balance with 1 more attack?. in this Case Visual is Substance.

I believe it is only possible to construct it in a fortress or above. I'm not real sure what the rest of your post is suggesting, it's hard to comprehend. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) you're saying that having the swordsmith guild giving experience is imbalanced. The previous statement of the guild giving +4-5 attack would be the imbalanced because it would nearly double most attack values which have been tested and refined for a long time.

Also, if you have 1 rank + 1 swordsmith guild (exp), it would result in 2 bronze chevrons, still only giving +1 attack. The unit receives +2 attack when it obtains the first silver chevron (or rank 4).

Please try to be more concise in your sentence structure, it's hard to understand.

[Caesar Clivus]

Would it not be possible to make the guild constructable only in advanced settlements such as Citadels or fortresses ? and all thou i Dont see any real balance for this and 1 attack is not the end of the world. besides i didnt state that Experience should be removed i merely added that for balance 1 Experience rank = 1 attack anyway so a Swordsmith guild giving 1 attack with the upgrade or with rank the only diffrence is the visual is it not ? Then you can always say that Getting 1 Rank experience + 1 Swordsmith guild is imbalanced but then again not all settlements will have swordsmith guilds and if they indeed did wouldent that just be balance with 1 more attack?.

Let me reiterate. RealCombat uses real life data to work out attack and defense values. Attack values are worked out through the amount of energy a given weapon would generate in an attack. Giving too many bonuses to attack totally defeats the purpose of the entire system. You would have, for example, a longsword dealing as much damage as a two-handed sword which is totally unrealistic and could never happen with a longsword being wielded by any man.

The attack bonus that experience gives cannot be changed. So we have to accept it as part of the system. But if you then add a bonus from the guild on top of that, you start to approach the absurd situation I just described. So yes, adding +1 attack from the guild is imbalancing when you combine it with experience. And every unit will get experience sooner or later. True, not every settlement will have a swordsmith's guild, but even having one in the game producing unrealistic units totally invalidates the system.

The point of RealCombat is to produce as accurate a combat system as possible within the constraints of the game engine. A lot of the game engine is hardcoded and cannot be changed. As such, we should endeavour to do everything in our power to limit where the hardcoded factors impact upon the goal of an accurate portrayal of medieval combat.

in this Case Visual is Substance.

Again I disagree. Playing a balanced game far outweighs some purely visual effect that you're hardly going to notice anyway. Vanilla wasn't balanced. Hence the need for RealCombat. And anyway, how long do you spend looking at your men's weapons in any given battle

[Cheomesh]

I never fully understood the purpose of "upgrading" weapons to a "better" version of the one they already have. Sure, swords and the like evolved throughout the middle ages and beyond, but that was mostly for tactical reasons.

Wouldn't a Swordsmith's guild maybe give some kind of discount on training sword-using units? Basically, they're capable of churning out far more swords for the army than a lower-level industrial base. Or, perhaps it could just be called the swordsman school, drill hall or training ground?

M.

[Velico]

Seeing as this guild no longer gives bonuses to damage, it doesn't make much sense to keep calling it a Swordsmith's Guild.

Since it gives experience the building could be renamed something along the lines of: "Advanced Drills", "Drill-Masters", "War Field", etc.

I particularly like the idea of "Drill-Masters". The script asking if you'd like to implement it could read something like: "Would you like to post a drill-master to this castle for extra training of the units stationed here?"

[Stephan de St. Omer]

Since it gives experience the building could be renamed something along the lines of: "Advanced Drills", "Drill-Masters", "War Field", etc.

I particularly like the idea of "Drill-Masters". The script asking if you'd like to implement it could read something like: "Would you like to post a drill-master to this castle for extra training of the units stationed here?"

First, CC, thanks for clearing that up once again for me. I remember we had this discussion ages ago but see it as a kind of worsening senility on my part but at least that is why I am part of "Ye olde Dudes of Stainless Steel".

In response to Velico I would second the motion for a name change. InGerman we have the excellent term "Exerzierplatz" which would possibly translate into "drill-ground" and in my view this would fit a lot better to the XP-Bonus!

Question remains: Where must I change the name of the guild and the attached text?

Thanks to all for their valuable input.

Greetings,

Kritic Stephan