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  1. #1
    ♔Jean-Luc Picard♔'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    WASHINGTON – The liberals' longtime dream of a government-run health care system for all died Wednesday in the Senate, but Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont vowed it will return when the realization dawns that private insurance companies "are no longer needed."
    Sanders, an independent and socialist, said his approach is the only one "which eliminates the hundreds of billions of dollars in waste, administrative costs, bureaucracy and profiteering that is engendered by the private insurance companies." His remarks drew handshakes and even a hug or two from Democrats who had filed into the Senate to hear him.
    Sanders acknowledged the proposal lacked the votes to pass, and he chose to withdraw it after Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., exercised his prerogative and required Senate clerks to begin reading the 767-page proposal aloud to a nearly empty chamber. After three hours, they were 139 pages into it.
    The political theater came as the White House and Senate Democrats sought an agreement with Sen. Ben Nelson, D-Neb., to become the 60th supporter of President Barack Obama's health care overhaul — the number needed to overcome a Republican filibuster.
    The Nebraska lawmaker told reporters he was reviewing a proposal to toughen abortion restrictions in the legislation, one of the changes he is seeking. Nelson said the compromise negotiated by anti-abortion Sen. Bob Casey, D-Pa., involves attempt to separate private and public funds, an approach that in the past failed to sway the Nebraska moderate and Catholic bishops.
    Asked whether the new language was satisfactory, Nelson said, "I don't know at this point in time. Constituency groups haven't responded back yet."
    Nelson emerged as the lone known holdout among 60 Democrats and independents earlier in the week after Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn., forced supporters of the bill to remove a proposed Medicare expansion.
    Democratic officials also disclosed that Nelson's Nebraska-based chief of staff, Tim Becker, met with White House officials to put the final touches on recent negotiations between his boss and the president. Nelson's chief concerns deal with issues in Nebraska that are unrelated to the health care bill, said an official with close ties to the senator. The official spoke on grounds of anonymity to discuss private conversations.
    In general, the overall legislation is designed to spread coverage to millions who lack it, ban insurance industry practices such as denying coverage because of pre-existing medical conditions and slow the rate of growth for medical spending nationally.
    Republicans are unanimously opposed, and accuse Democrats of seeking deep cuts in Medicare and higher taxes to create a new benefit program that they argue gives government too large a role in the health care system.
    The debate over the proper role for the government has bedeviled the issue from the outset.
    At the behest of liberal Democrats, the House bill establishes a nationwide government-run insurance option in hopes of creating competition for private insurers.
    In the Senate, moderates refused to support anything similar, with Nelson balking even at standby authority for the government in case efforts failed in their attempt to entice private companies to become more competitive.
    Instead, the Senate measure is likely to call for development of nonprofit private plans to be overseen by the Office of Personnel Management, the agency that supervises the system that federal employees and lawmakers use to get coverage.
    The compromises to the Senate bill have union leaders reassessing whether they should continue to offer support publicly for the measure.
    The politically powerful Service Employees International Union backed out of a Wednesday news conference at which it and other groups — including the AARP — planned to promote the bill. Instead, the union's executive board met to discuss concerns about the plan's lack of a public option and the Senate's decision to remove a Medicare buy-in alternative.
    "We're looking at what we need for the reform bill to be something that we can probably support," SEIU spokeswoman Lori Lodes said.
    Sanders referred to his proposal as a "Medicare for all single-payer bill" and said if it became law, patients would be able to see the same doctors they now use. In his speech, he ripped into insurance companies, drugmakers, medical device manufacturers and others.
    In order to provide cost-effective comprehensive health care, he said, "you're going to have to take on the private insurance companies and tell them very clearly they are no longer needed. Thanks for your service. We don't need you anymore."
    Sanders later said he was not yet ready to say he would vote for the legislation Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is drafting. Democrats are counting on him as one of the 60 votes they need, and have not betrayed any nervousness in recent days about his intentions.
    The House already has approved its version of the health care bill, and Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said Wednesday she was confident a final compromise would be signed into law before Obama's 2010 State of the Union address.
    She signaled a willingness to look at the proposal in the Senate bill that takes the place of government-run insurance in the House bill.
    Asked whether she could support a final bill without a so-called public option, she said, "it depends what else is in the bill."

    Well, I must say that I'm more than a little glad. My question is, how soon do you think it will be back on the table?

    Source

    It is my great honour to have my poem Farmer in the Scriptorium here.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Luc Picard View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Well, I must say that I'm more than a little glad. My question is, how soon do you think it will be back on the table?

    Source
    As soon as we Americans smell the current mess for the that it really is. I actually am of the opinion that single-payer systems are inevitable. The demand has been growing since the 40s.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  3. #3
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Your Avatar and name is of a fictional character in the future where universal health care, social programs are the norm and widely accepted.

    Sanders, an independent and socialist, said his approach is the only one "which eliminates the hundreds of billions of dollars in waste, administrative costs, bureaucracy and profiteering that is engendered by the private insurance companies." His remarks drew handshakes and even a hug or two from Democrats who had filed into the Senate to hear him.
    Until more people like Sanders are elected than we wont see the change we need. We need to vote out the old stubborn conservatives who oppose any kind of government health care.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Your Avatar and name is of a fictional character in the future where universal health care, social programs are the norm and widely accepted.
    They also have magic machines that can make anything out of pure energy, which would actually allow socialism to work.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    They also have magic machines that can make anything out of pure energy, which would actually allow socialism to work.
    Socialism has kinda been working for like 150 years now. It kinda made life for most people livable and ended people killing eachother.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  6. #6

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Socialism has kinda been working for like 150 years now. It kinda made life for most people livable and ended people killing eachother.


    The hilarious thing is you really believe that. Give it a few years.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post


    The hilarious thing is you really believe that.
    The hilarious thing is that you probably don't even get it, like you don't get a lot.

    Give it a few years.


    No wait, this is the hilarious thing.

    The evil, nasty Socialist Welfare State has existed for over 100 years, since Germany adopted it on a nation-wide scale in the 1880s. Similair forms of ''welfare states'', but on a factory-wide scale, were used since the 1821s. Why in God's name should a system, which has worked perfectly for over 120 years, suddenly collapse?
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  8. #8

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post


    The hilarious thing is you really believe that. Give it a few years.

    the hilarious thing is that you believe the free market works, give it a few years.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    I predict that in 50 years Americans will be heading to Canada for healthcare, when Medicaid and Medicare will be abolished because they're too ing expensive and private health insurance becomes increasingly more expensive as a result.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  10. #10
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    The Romans in a limited way had a form of health care as well.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    The Romans in a limited way had a form of health care as well.
    Bah, what do the Romans know about organisation and Western society?
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  12. #12
    BNS's Avatar ...
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    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    The Romans in a limited way had a form of health care as well.
    The Romans also stagnated and fell, in part due to all their poor laws.



  13. #13
    Darth Red's Avatar It's treason, then
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    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    I actually saw this yesterday in The Boston Herald as the AP was all over this. Let me just pretend for a moment that I am not one of those block all things government run Republican. Perhaps a single pay would be good but these people in the Senate are getting it all wrong. I am not saying that I have the answer, but I know crap when I read it. I missed this part in the story from the OP so I'll copy what was striking for me and why I would reject this nonsense.
    Full Story
    Sanders acknowledged the proposal lacked the votes to pass, and he chose to withdraw it after Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., exercised his prerogative and required Senate clerks to begin reading the 767-page proposal aloud to a nearly empty chamber. After three hours, they were 139 pages into it.
    This was just one amendment. 767 pages of burocracy. 139 pages in and three hours later there shelving the whole thing.
    I don't even think most Democrats know what is going into these bills. Granted I expect most Republicans to reject these kinds of expances of governments, but it's telling to me when the Democrats shelf thier own legislation.

    Kudos to Tom Coburn (R) for asking them to read aloud so all the senators could see this was (fill in your own explative here).
    Officially Bottled Awesome™ by Justinian


  14. #14
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Not due to their poor laws, prob more to do with their finances and government actions. But that is a matter for another thread.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/14/us...e-of-pork.html

    Adding pork to thousand page bills is nothing new and has been done by both parties.
    Those initiatives were just three of the thousands of pet projects that received billions of dollars in the foot-high, 3,000-page spending package that finances every federal agency outside the Pentagon through Sept. 30.
    I dont think neither of us (Darth Red) really know what was in Coburn bill. Does it have pork in it, sure it prob does, prob a lot, but would his idea of a single payer work, neither of us know because as far as I know details of his plan really havnt been released.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Now that's quite retarded, even by your standards of posts. Explain how WWI and WWII have any connection at all with Social Democracy? I was unaware internal European conflicts were based around social insurance.
    Allow me to quote you....

    Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer
    Socialism has kinda been working for like 150 years now. It kinda made life for most people livable and ended people killing eachother.
    So explain to me how socialism has been kinda working for 150 years now and ENDED people killing each other, coming off the last most bloody 150 years in European history? We don't even need to talk about the National Socialists if you care not to.

    Give me a few years and my faith in Socialism as an idea will grow, as the US descends into deeper pools of or reforms.
    No I have some faith in your basic intelligence, just not in your life experience.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Allow me to quote you....


    So explain to me how socialism has been kinda working for 150 years now and ENDED people killing each other, coming off the last most bloody 150 years in European history? We don't even need to talk about the National Socialists if you care not to.
    I told you you wouldn't get it.

    Again, first off, trying to pass of Nazis and Communists as Socialists, is like pretending that Fascists are Conservatives. And again, anyone, with even a hint of an IQ higher than that of an infant, can see that the Nazis were about as Socialist as Bismarck. They built on the already existing German welfare state, yes, but that's it. The rest of National-Socialism was based on Far Right, Ultraconservative ideologies based on for example Georg Ritter von Schoenerer's party and views.

    Secondly, that still doesn't explain WWI, or the period before it. You've gone to school right? World War I was a war essentially like a vulcanic eruption, primarily caused by tensions between European powers, mainly Russia, France and Germany. You see, prior to the Franco-Russian Entente, Europe was (largely) peaceful because of imbalance. That might sound weird, but it was so. The main source of tension was the Balcans, as the Austrians and Russians were pushing the Ottomans away, and new countries sprung up. The various wars there caused tension as both Austria and Russia tried to turn them into their new periphery. After Russia had made considerable gains in the 1870s and could vassalise most of the eastern half of the Balcans, their treaty was declared void by Bismarck, and he declared a meeting on a new one, the Treaty of Berlin, which meant that the Balcans would not be a Russian satelite, much to the latter's dismay. In 1878, there was a crisis, as Russia tried to vassalise Bulgaria, threatening a war between it and Austria. It seemed a war would happen, but then Germany stepped in and threatened the Russians, as did Britain. Russia backed down and Germany forged an alliance with Austria, to keep the former on a leash and scare Russia from further expansionism. This created imbalance, as neither Austria nor Russia dared to do anything, because they knew that Germany wouldn't be friendly to either. This was okay, untill France forged an alliance with Russia. This instantly shifted the scales. The Franco-Russian alliance was now just as strong, if not stronger, than Germany, spooking them. Germany feared that Russia and France would become increasingly more powerful, eventually clearly outclassing Germany. This was the major contributor to war in 1914: Germany, supposed to be Europe's guardian of peace, become the most war mongering of the countries. German leaders had an attitude of ''now or never'', as they (not entirely without reason) assumed that they had a choice: a war they might win now, or risk becoming increasingly inferior to France and Russia. And, as we all know, history went it's merry way and war erupted, with nasty consequences.

    Now, where do Socialists fit in all this, especially considering that most Socialist, famously Jean Jaures, were pacifists. The aforementioned frenchmen organised a meeting between international Socialists in an effort to stop the war, which evidently failed. He was shot several days later by a French nationalist?

    No I have some faith in your basic intelligence, just not in your life experience.
    It's quite amusing that you mention ''basic intelligence'', whilst your posts regarding Socialism have shown none in any of the discussions I've had with you. They usually boil down to crude and erroneous nonsense and tirades about the evils of Socialism, which makes one wonder from which orifice you pulled that out and what kind of devastation you have brought upon your braincells to actually believe it as well.

    The only reason to support European socialism is that that the Europeans are too poor to go to war
    Example of the aforementioned orifice-pulling.

    Clearly you are right. Oh wait.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...European_Union

    Total military strenght of combined of EU countries = nearly 7 million.
    Total military strenght of US = Over 1 million

    Hey, but we must be poor rig...oh wait.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_...European_Union

    the EU has the largest economy in the world; the economy of the EU is slightly larger than that of the U.S. in terms of GDP purchasing (PPP) and ~24% larger in terms of nominal GDP, as of 2008
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dream

    To support his thesis, Rifkin notes[1] that in addition to the EU having more people and a greater Gross Domestic Product than the U.S., the potential of the EU as an economic superpower is shown by having: 14/20 of the top banks in the world, 61 of the 140 of the top companies of the world as measure by the Global Fortune 500 (the U.S. has 50), a homicide rate that is 1/4 than in the U.S., the 18 most developed countries in Europe all have more broadly distributed wealth than the U.S.(the U.S. ranks 24th in the world), higher lifespan than the U.S., higher literacy rates than the U.S., Higher quality of life than the U.S. Also, Europeans provide 47% of all the humanitarian aid in the world, and is seen by Rifkin as being more effective, evidenced by the fact that the EU stopped the merger of General Electric and Honeywell, fined Microsoft for anti-trust, and blocked genetically modified
    Whoops, another wrong gamble by Phier. Try again next time, you might win with random, outrageous claims then!

    National Socialist German Workers' Party

    Ignore me.
    Originally called ''Deutsche Arbeiters Partei'', a Far Right Labour movement, named ''National Socialist Workers' Party'' by a largely unknown Nazi (Hitler prefered ''German Revolutionary Party'' or something along those lines) who wanted the party to truly become ''National Socialist'', but who fell into the background later on.

    Also socialism thrives only off of productive economies in the first place, aka capitalism. Nevertheless, I still support single-payer system.
    It works the other way around as well. Laissez-faire Capitalism was/is hardly a peaceful or nice system. In order for Capitalism to last it must adopt humane things from Socialism, and Socialism can't be sustained without an effective economic system, the most effective one being Capitalism. To quote Leon Trotsky: ''Socialism needs Capitalism like human body needs oxygen to survive'' and it works the other way around as well, evidently.
    Last edited by Dr. Croccer; December 18, 2009 at 03:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  17. #17
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Even you Phier know that Hitler eliminated the Socialists from the National Socialist party (Nazis) long before ww2. The Nazis were no more socialist than they were peaceful.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Even you Phier know that Hitler eliminated the Socialists from the National Socialist party (Nazis) long before ww2. The Nazis were no more socialist than they were peaceful.
    The only reason to support European socialism is that that the Europeans are too poor to go to war
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Let's put it this way. The health care systems of European countries cost less per capita while giving universal coverage, ergo they're more efficient than the USA system. The latter is actually unsustainable, as all projections point to a big rise in the % of USA gdp going to pay for health care.
    You don't have to reform it to please Obama or the "liberals". You have to reform it because you can't afford it.
    I doubt he'll listen. He will if he lives long enough to see the costs of Medicaid and Medicare balloon to the point where the US will be in serious trouble. And that won't take that long, if their history and predicted future are anything to go by.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  20. #20

    Default Re: Single-payer health care plan dies in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    I doubt he'll listen. He will if he lives long enough to see the costs of Medicaid and Medicare balloon to the point where the US will be in serious trouble. And that won't take that long, if their history and predicted future are anything to go by.
    I don't get it, much like I don't get Scientology. I see all the words and know the meanings but the logical connections fail for me.

    Socialism is like this conversation.

    Man: I don't understand why the price of bread is so high.
    Woman: Because cats wear mittens.
    Man: Of course!
    Woman: And now violence has ended!

    Yes Medicare/Caid are expensive, the solution isn't putting us all under the same type of system, that just draws out the problem, their is still a tipping point. The solution is far simpler.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

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