At the International Court of Justice - International law vs. separatism

[Војвода Драгутин Кесеровић]

Not so long ago, a trial comensed at the ICJ in The Hague on the legality of the unilateral separation of Kosovo & Metohija from Serbia.

The discussion has come to a close and the judges will now retreat to make a decision. This decision can take a long time, or it can perhaps take a short time (all depends on the judges), so before we hear the verdict, let's make a short (or perhaps a long) review on the course of a trial the likes of which the world has never seen before, a trial that would be regarded in history as a milestone for the issue of secession worldwide.

It all began before it even began, with a preposterous statement of a Japanese judge, that was later demanted, but nevertheless had cast a shadow over the following proceedings:

ICJ Decision on Kosovo to Be Vague :: BalkanInsight.com


After that, the trial started, here is the chronology, seen from the position of the Serbian government:

ICJ begins debate on legality of Kosovo-Metohija’s unilateral independence

Kosovo-Metohija’s unilaterally declared independence jeopardises international order

Serbia presents its case before ICJ with wisdom, equanimity, forcefulness

Discussion on legality of Kosovo independence continues before ICJ

Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bahrain, Austria speak at ICJ

Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, Burundi to speak at ICJ debate

ICJ discussion on Kosovo-Metohija completed


Here's some coverage from the ICJ's website:

11/12/2009

PHOTOS:

http://www.icj-cij.org/presscom/photos.php?p1=6&p2=8


Here are some arguments on behalf of the International Law, made by countries opposed to it's violation:

Kosovo Compromise :: ICJ: Argentina argues Kosovo's UDI was ...

B92 - News - In focus - China: Kosovo declaration violates intl. law

Bogdan Aurescu pleaded at the ICJ against Kosovo's independence ...

Russia pledges backing for Serbia at ICJ hearing on Kosovo - South ...

Kosovo: First US-Russia ICJ face-off


I would leave it for the separatists and their advocates here to present their own links and arguments as the discussion here develops

[il padrino]

I was dissapointed by the Croatian opinion,that supported the Albanian side.

I mean,their point was "People have right to secede"

How come they didn't allow that right to the Serbs in Krajina ?

Also,their argument also made us understand,what they think of an eventual future status of Vojvodina...




Also if we just look at the quality of arguments,it's a clear win for us.

[s.rwitt]

If 92% (NINTEY ****ING TWO) of the population doesn't want to be part of a country, they shouldn't be.

Kosovo is gone. It's not coming back. Get over it.

[Romano-Dacis]

If 92% (NINTEY ****ING TWO) of the population doesn't want to be part of a country, they shouldn't be.

Kosovo is gone. It's not coming back. Get over it.

From what I recall there was some far fought in the US a long time ago regarding seccession...

I believe people have a right to self-determination, but I also believe that this does not give those people the right to ethnic cleansing and tyranny over minorities. The problem is we need some form of legal structure, a UN tribunal, where minority groups can make their complaints and voice their will to secede from a country. The case of Kosovo, rather than pointing out the right of self-determination, just makes it evident that there is no proper legal framework in place when it comes to secession. You can have secession without tyranny of the majority or ethnic cleansing. the Break-up of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Soviet Union, and Czechoslovakia, proves such a thing is possible.

[Војвода Драгутин Кесеровић]

s.rwitt, Kosmet was "gone" before, around 1450 the Ottomans took it, held it for roughly 412 years, and yet, despite of all their efforts against the Serbs in Kosovo and elsewhere in Serbia during that period, it "came back" . Get over Fukuyama, "the end of history" is not a valid premise, there still will be life on earth after you and me . And anyway, 412yrs. is nothing, it's possible to win back your country even after millenias, just ask the Jews

Back closer to topic; I'm afraid H. Ovada was being honest, the ruling will most probably be ambiguous, what will follow the ruling will be much more interesting, cuz both sides will interpret it in their favour and push to gain some ground politically. For the Serbian side, the goal is to reenter negotiations (as hinted by Serbian foreign ministry before)...

Anyway, we won't know 'till we hear the verdict, but what's interesting now is to analyze the opinions given by respective UN member discutants.

I am most pleasently surprised by the Argentine delegation, I'm still trying to find a pdf. of their statement on the web, in lack of that, here are some lnks:

Kosovo Compromise :: ICJ: Argentina argues Kosovo's UDI was ...

ICJ Hears Further Kosovo Arguments :: BalkanInsight.com

glassrbije.org - Argentina: Secession of Kosovo - threat to ...

Croatian expose is no surprise:

1. They are gearing up for presenting their case against Serbia on "genocide".

2. They have pretensions on parts of Serbian Authonomous Province of Vojvodina (the demarcation of SRB-CRO border on Danube is a process yet to start and certain circles in Zagreb are still dreaming of Croatian WW2 borders, as drawn by the Axis powers, that included entire of Srem region and ended beneath the walls of Belgrade Fortress) .

[s.rwitt]

From what I recall there was some far fought in the US a long time ago regarding seccession...

Yeah no ****. And that was wrong too.

I believe people have a right to self-determination, but I also believe that this does not give those people the right to ethnic cleansing and tyranny over minorities. The problem is we need some form of legal structure, a UN tribunal, where minority groups can make their complaints and voice their will to secede from a country. The case of Kosovo, rather than pointing out the right of self-determination, just makes it evident that there is no proper legal framework in place when it comes to secession. You can have secession without tyranny of the majority or ethnic cleansing. the Break-up of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Soviet Union, and Czechoslovakia, proves such a thing is possible.

I simply can't understand why people use the fact that both sides ethnically cleansed each other as support for an argument that they should remain together.
----------------------

s.rwitt, Kosmet was "gone" before, around 1450 the Ottomans took it, held it for roughly 412 years, and yet, despite of all their efforts against the Serbs in Kosovo and elsewhere in Serbia during that period, it "came back" . Get over Fukuyama, "the end of history" is not a valid premise, there still will be life on earth after you and me . And anyway, 412yrs. is nothing, it's possible to win back your country even after millenias, just ask the Jews

Not when "your country" doesn't want to be in your country.

[Војвода Драгутин Кесеровић]

I simply can't understand why people use the fact that both sides ethnically cleansed each other as support for an argument that they should remain together.

In 2008, then minister for Kosovo&Metohija proposed a plan on functional disjunction between the two communities in Kosmet, in short, the plan would provide for Serbian community in "the north" and within the enclaves to govern themselves according to the Constitution of Serbia, while the interim administration in Priština would retain a maximum level of self governance provided by UN1244.

The plan was unfortunately abandoned by the new minister after the teledirigised formation of the new Serbian gov. - even though the UN officially took it into consideration....

Anyway, the two ethnicities will have to remain together one way or another, cuz their just too close to each other geographically and interdependent economically (with Albanians relying more on Serbia for goods and services and Serbs rely on Priština for their safety) to ignore each other, while the question of sovereignty over the land will remain open in the following years, no matter the court decision, no matter he NATO occupation - cuz the UN membersip for "Kosovo" is nowhere on the horizon....

Still, there is still a chance of high treason in Belgrade, not so long ago SRB pres. Tadić, a NATO puppet, spoke of "painful decisions" and such, it put shivers down the spine of majority of Serbs, even many of those who where foolish enough to entrust him with their vote...

I guess the best chance for "Republic of Kosova" is to wait for some puppet regime in BG to just finish their work instead of them - but I still hold hope that Tadić is not a suicidal man and that those "painfull decisions" do not imply the recognicion of "Kosova", be it overt or covert....

Not when "your country" doesn't want to be in your country.

That works the other way around also - it implies for Priština as well, cuz large portions of "their country" don't wanna be in "their country"

Of course, they (Albanians) demonstrated clearly in 2004 that they are more than happy to resort to ethnic purges as to remedy that situation.

[s.rwitt]

That works the other way around also - it implies for Priština as well, cuz large portions of "their country" don't wanna be in "their country"

That's fine with me too.

Of course, they (Albanians) demonstrated clearly in 2004 that they are more than happy to resort to ethnic purges as to remedy that situation.

Good thing Serbs never did anything like that.

[Војвода Драгутин Кесеровић]

Good thing Serbs never did anything like that.

...the major difference being that Serbs were rewarded with depleted uranium bombs and Albanians are rewarded with a NATO backing for their separatism.... Not to mention that cream of Serbian leadership from 1999 is doing time at ICTY, while the KLA terrorists are being pardoned and still running free.... but we've already elaborated on that 100 times before...

But that's one of the premises of the USA debate at ICJ also - "Serbia lost the right to govern the province cause of the "genocide"." - the problem is: International Law knows not of such a premise, not to mention it knows nothing about rewording ethnic ourges with independence neither

[s.rwitt]

The same could be said about rewarding (Serbian) genocide by not allowing a reigon such as Kosovo to break away. The fact is that the vast majority of the people there don't want to be part of Serbia. The fact that both sides have a history of committing war crimes against each other only serves to support my argument that it's an enormously retarded idea force Kosovo to remain part of Serbia instead of allowing them to be seperated.

[Tiberios]

I'm still waiting for the International Court of Justice to pursue Bosnian, Croatian and Albanian war criminals as eagerly as they have pursued Serb war criminals. Until that happens, I have no faith in that organisation.

[Grof]

The same could be said about rewarding (Serbian) genocide by not allowing a reigon such as Kosovo to break away. The fact is that the vast majority of the people there don't want to be part of Serbia. The fact that both sides have a history of committing war crimes against each other only serves to support my argument that it's an enormously retarded idea force Kosovo to remain part of Serbia instead of allowing them to be seperated.

If the Albanians don't want to live in Serbia they can sure as hell pack up and leave. Nobody is stopping them from doing that.

It is also a enormously retarded idea to bomb Serbia over "genocides" and to make KLA leaders who have done the same or even worse presidents of a fake nation.

[Monarchist]

I believe organizations with the word "international" anything are corrupt fronts for a one-world government. If Serbia wants Kosovo, it should be manly and invade. The United Nations, Hague Court, I.P.C.C., etc. are just ways for nations to lose more and more sovereignty through pointless bureaucracy. When an international org. such as the U.N. declares that marriage is a human right (1948), you know something is totally off-kilter. "International war crimes" trials are totally ridiculous, and I have no respect for any of these arrogant courts. Nations should talk, one-on-one, to each other and not rely on some stupid bunch of Communists who have no respect for their national autonomy.

[ivan_the_terrible]

And there you have it: all efforts at international cooperation are the result of a global conspiracy by communists to create a world government. Bravo.

[Monarchist]

I've believed that for a very long time, my friend. If you don't like it, you don't have to give me any credence.

You know that your reply is dishonest, anyway. I never said that I want to stop international co-operation. Co-operation is trade, sovereign diplomacy, talks between two nations that have grievances, and other private things. The United Nations is not a co-operative entity, nor are the international courts. These organizations exist to oppress people and stifle talks between two or three nations; they want all nations to decide each others' fate. Don't you corrupt my words by accusing me of being an isolationist, which is what I take from your response. It's about national individuality and right of government, not "stopping co-operation".

[ivan_the_terrible]

It was not my intent to accuse of isolationism. I merely found it amusing that you thought the UN were communists, and that it was part of "corrupt fronts for a one-world government" (in other words, a big conspiracy).

I'll replace the word "all", how's that?

'*major* efforts at international cooperation are the result of a global conspiracy by communists to create a world government. Bravo.'

[Monarchist]

It was not my intent to accuse of isolationism. I merely found it amusing that you thought the UN were communists, and that it was part of "corrupt fronts for a one-world government" (in other words, a big conspiracy).

I'll replace the word "all", how's that?

'*major* efforts at international cooperation are the result of a global conspiracy by communists to create a world government. Bravo.'

The U.N. are Communists - they want a commune of nations without borders. You can feel it in their cold, evil assemblies, and you can see it in their dead eyes. Lifeless, vile drones who support dictators. They didn't leave the chamber when Ahmadinejad stood up to yell at Jews, even though the brave Israeli party left when he took the podium. When you can sit and listen to terrible human beings like Achmadinejihad, there is something terribly wrong with you.

No, not "major" efforts; I support inter-national co-operation between two nations that are up in arms against each other about something. Why should some pencil-neck'd judge from Germany have a say over the fate of Serbia and Kosovo? It is naked Commune-ism; that is: all nations must be controlled by all other nations for "Harmony" and other nonsense. I just don't trust them, my friend! I'm sorry!

There is nothing wrong with believing in conspiracies. There's nothing wrong with believing anything that just might be true.

[Romano-Dacis]

The U.N. are Communists - they want a commune of nations without borders. You can feel it in their cold, evil assemblies, and you can see it in their dead eyes. Lifeless, vile drones who support dictators. They didn't leave the chamber when Ahmadinejad stood up to yell at Jews, even though the brave Israeli party left when he took the podium. When you can sit and listen to terrible human beings like Achmadinejihad, there is something terribly wrong with you.

It's quite funny that you mention Jews, when they mostly invented the movement of pluralism and internationalism.... oh, and communism, no less.
I give you Kevin MacDonald's Culture of Critique. Read all about it there if you don't believe me. Are you even aware of what communism is?

Honestly, I can't tell if you're being a troll or not with this post.

[s.rwitt]

If the Albanians don't want to live in Serbia they can sure as hell pack up and leave. Nobody is stopping them from doing that.

If the Serbs don't want to live in Kosovo they can sure as hell pack up and leave. Nobody is stopping them from doing that.

It is also a enormously retarded idea to bomb Serbia over "genocides" and to make KLA leaders who have done the same or even worse presidents of a fake nation.

Will you ****ing move on? No one is even talking about the bombing. They are talking about the seperation of Kosovo from Serbia.

[Armenum]

As an Armenian who wants Nagorno-Karabakh Republic to be recognized, I support self-determination. However, as an Armenian I've always supported the Serbs in their conflicts in the Balkans, mostly due to our common religion, our common ally of Russia, and our mutual conflict with muslims over the years. So this situation with Kosovo is very awkward for Armenia and Armenians in general to take a definite side (most Armenians though support Serbs). On the other hand, Albanians who have been portrayed as victims have also done bad things along side NATO who bombarded Serbia in the process doing much damage to civilians. On the other hand, I don't want to sound like a hypocrite by supporting Serbia's territorial integrity but then support the self determination of Karabakh.