What the hell is wrong with the diplomacy AI?

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

So in my game I started as Britain, I've had to deal with an AI that, quite frankly, makes the RTW and M2TW look spectacular by comparison.

Exactly why does a faction like Venice see fit to attack me just after I've obliterated Naples and the Italian States for attacking me for no reason, when they have only one full stack and I have two full stacks on the Italian peninsula alone?

Why does Sweden arbitrarily declare war on me, just to blockade my trade routes in Eastern England with ONE ship with only 2 men on it? Why then do they ask EVERY SINGLE TURN for a ceasefire... and then demand THREE technologies from me?


Why does Holland, having only one city and already having been destroyed once, ask me EVERY SINGLE TURN, NONSTOP, for the most outrageous of trades, usually involving ME giving them four technologies in exchange for 20 turns of military access? Or a trade agreement in exchange for my giving them the Bahamas?


Why does every faction reject EVERYTHING I ask of them, no matter how small? At the very least, virtually every neutral faction in RTW or M2TW would accept a mutual trade agreement from nothing. Here, they all but accuse me of insulting them for suggesting such a thing.

Thus far the only successful diplomacy I've done is a peace treaty with Venice (after taking Venezia itself) and a peace tready with Sweden (after taking ALL OF NORWAY AND SWEDEN).


How am I supposed to work with this AI? These are only the ones that have benefitted me? Thus far, in the "WTF" region, I've had Sweden land on England with a huge army and take London in a single turn, the very turn after I've sent a London army to the New World.

But even worse, when I tried to play as the Ottomans, I lost Sarajevo like 4 turns in TO ENGLAND. AN ENTIRE STACK OF ENGLISH TROOPS JUST RANDOMLY APPEARED IN SARAJEVO, A THOUSAND MILES FROM THE NEAREST ENGLISH TERRITORY!


I don't mean to rant, it's just a severe detriment to gameplay when I'm playing in an era of advanced diplomacy and complexities, and yet I'm encountering a situation where I'm afraid to take out the rest of Sweden because it means I'll border Russia, and they'll just decide to attack me for absolutely no reason, and thus I have to treat the ENTIRE WORLD as my enemy.

[Graphic]

First time I've seen someone complain about the AI carrying out successful naval invasions. You get a banana sticker.

[Ataraxie]

First time I've seen someone complain about the AI carrying out successful naval invasions. You get a banana sticker.

I don't know, he does rather have point - Britain seems to be scripted to invade random factions in the most unlikely of places, with no real reasoning behind it (Invading Arkangelsk or Karelia in my Russian campaigns, every time, attacking Brandenburg every other time I play as Prussia, etc)

That, and the AI doesn't treat naval invasions any differently to land invasions it seems - the AI WILL attack the player, at random, if a border suddenly becomes weak - same goes for coastal regions/ports - if the AI notices that the player is doing something else, it'll randomly attack. In an American campaign, I end up fortifying every city and sticking minutemen all over the place to keep the AI from behaving like a teenager in a plate glass factory.

It's not that it makes the game any more difficult - any army can be chewed over by a fort and some line infantry - it's that it makes no sense at all for CA to have put in something always wanted for this game (naval invasions), but to have then decided to either script it, or implement it in such a way as to make it irritating more than interesting, most of the time.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

...

Banana sticker! All mine!

[NJGOAT]

I've seen cases of stupidity and cases of logical naval invasions by the AI. I think some of the naval invasion behavior is based on your campaign difficulty as well. As far as diplomacy goes, it seems to be a mixed bag.

When playing as France, I took Dutch Guyana and was holding both Guyana's with a small mixed force. After nothing happening there for several years, the Dutch navy shows up off the coast and drops off a 3/4 stack of East India Company troops, cannons and cav in French Guyana. My small force was wiped out (6x militia, 2x cannon and 2x native muskets) and they took both territories from me. Overall a well planned and executed attack by the AI.

I've also seen the Maratha drop a stack in York Factory for no apparent reason and have dealt with the British harassing me such as; attacking Konigsburg or Brandenburg when I'm Prussia or invading Norway or Archangel when I was Sweden. Though we were at war when they attacked, I've never had it happen unprovoked.

The diplomacy system is IMO the one area outside of the BAI that needs major tweaking. It's a lot better than it was in 1.0 in that you actually get offers from the AI and they make counter offers. I tend to find its 50/50 for the quality of what they offer. You get the spammed stupid requests like swapping Konigsburg for the Bahamas or giving up all your tech and a territory for an alliance. That gets balanced out by countries that are losing a war suing for peace and occasionally even offering concessions, as well as allies behaving like allies.

There are improvements to be made, but I don't think its as borked as the OP made it seem.

[eregost]

My advice is dont play on VH campaign difficulty. The AI just goes nuts and as you said attacks on the basis of shared borders. Hard difficulty is the best balance between challenging and reasonable AI imo.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

I'm playing on Normal difficulty, since all my VH experience comes from RTW and M2TW and this is a whole new experience, being my first full campaign

[Sneak]

I kinda agree - I hate the fact that randomly small citys, with small allies would declare war on you - I know that for example Austria, Great Britain etc would goto war with you, if you were becoming to strong for their liking, or you're taking over too many small nations, in this case territoral expansion. I agree with that Britain, Austria etc would do it, as they're a big nation but for someone like Venice, Italian States, Knights of St. John and all, it's kinda crazy.

It annoys me when they randomly attack you for no apparent reason, or goto war, take over something then request peace for a land or something.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

More instances of AI stupid include: The Iroquois Confederacy attacked me. Maybe it could be interpreted as reasonable, considering I had Quebec and Montreal, and was closely bordering them. They took Quebec with a huge army. I took it back. But before I did, they dispatched a big part of their army solely to harassing my nearby improvements, even after taking Quebec. They took Quebec AGAIN and proceeded to do exactly the same thing, essentially leaving Quebec barely defended so I could easily take it back. Then I have to send a bunch of militia to spend 2-3 years just hunting these Iroquois down, as they attack them, defeat them, and the Iroquois withdraw DEEP INTO MY OWN LAND so that I have to spend TWO TURNS chasing after them again.

Then the Cherokee Nation declared war on me, I don't remember if it was joining in with Louisiana, but I doubt it, and thus far they have a huge garrison bordering my outpost in Florida, and they've done nothing hostile towards me. I may just sign a peace treaty with them. Maybe.


Meanwhile, Russia declared war against me, probably because I crushed Sweden, and Sweden somehow arbitrarily got ahold of one province DEEP in Russia. And thus far, they've done absolutely nothing to me.

The Dutch again demanded THREE technologies AND indefinite military access in exchange for a trade agreement. So I attacked their ONE city, crushed their army long before their sizeable navy could so much as move a knot, saw the rebels spawned a few turns later driven from the land, and clasped their women and children to my breasts (I'm a female, yes) and heard their weeps and lamentations.

The rebels demanded stuff of me, too, before they rebelled. Naturally, I ignored them, let them rebel, and murdalated them.


Also, Afghanistan died out for the second time off in the Middle East, nowhere near me.

[NJGOAT]

A lot of what you described simply sounds like the AI being opportunistic. The Iroquois attacked a weakly defended area and then started erasing all signs of European settlement. You send troops to defeat them, they fade into the woods and regroup...welcome to war with the natives. I would much prefer the raiding/guerilla tactics that you are complaining about to earlier incarnations where they acted like Europeans in loin cloths.

The Cherokee, same thing. They sense weakness, they declare war. Florida is a regional goal for the Cherokee and they will do whatever is necessary to get their land back.

Russia sensed you were a threat and were now occupying territory they want on their border. Maybe they should have waited to mass an army to declare war, so I can see the assumed foolishness there, but going to war is a logical move.

Who knows with the Dutch, why they demand so much for the trade rights. It may have to do with the fact they have limited trade capacity and are a lucrative trade partner. Perhaps the AI is calculating the value of trade with the UP to you and determining a fair price for access to their markets? If you think it's ridiculous don't trade with them, or make a decent counter offer.

I agree the AI is incredibly stupid sometimes, but the instances you are citing actually prove that it can occasionally make a smart choice.

[89ShadowUK]

A lot of what you described simply sounds like the AI being opportunistic. The Iroquois attacked a weakly defended area and then started erasing all signs of European settlement. You send troops to defeat them, they fade into the woods and regroup...welcome to war with the natives. I would much prefer the raiding/guerilla tactics that you are complaining about to earlier incarnations where they acted like Europeans in loin cloths.

The Cherokee, same thing. They sense weakness, they declare war. Florida is a regional goal for the Cherokee and they will do whatever is necessary to get their land back.

Russia sensed you were a threat and were now occupying territory they want on their border. Maybe they should have waited to mass an army to declare war, so I can see the assumed foolishness there, but going to war is a logical move.

Who knows with the Dutch, why they demand so much for the trade rights. It may have to do with the fact they have limited trade capacity and are a lucrative trade partner. Perhaps the AI is calculating the value of trade with the UP to you and determining a fair price for access to their markets? If you think it's ridiculous don't trade with them, or make a decent counter offer.

I agree the AI is incredibly stupid sometimes, but the instances you are citing actually prove that it can occasionally make a smart choice.

As for regrouping, anyone notice they do that on the battlemap?

You try to engage, and they run back. When doing the road to independance, they kept taking out my morters, I knew it was comming, but everytime, an ambush unit would hit and run them while I was trying to anticipate their infantry movements, very clever warfare on their part.

[emporor]

Agreed the ai can do some stupid and annoying things. one of the worst culprits of this is Britain (because i like to play as minor nations and have the all playable mod) i usually play as italian states or malta and for some reason britain always declares war on me without reason. I can understand when im playing as malta because it is one of the regions they need to take but if im the italian states, venice or genoa (not one of the regions needed by britain) they still attack me for some reason rather than invading malta which would be nice to see. even recently in a new game as denmark they declared war and invaded me even though we were good trading partners and i have good relations with them.

That is the only annoying thing with total war games is the player hate that the AI has. It will only attack a faction because you are that faction. its like the screens of cross theater naval invasions the only ones i have seen of a european nation going into india is when the player is the marathas. The diplomacy is slightly better but could still use some improvements and some additions to the options of what you could do like forming a coalition, and maybe having a non agression pact option.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

It sounds smart when it's described so simply. But with the Iroquois, the problem is that they are LEAVING THE CITY VIRTUALLY UNDEFENDED, EVERY TIME THEY TAKE IT.


Russia sensed nothing! Russia is just there doing nothing! They declare war on me and what happens?

I took St. Petersburg! And I personally commanded the army! And it was an EMBARASSMENT for Russia! An utter EMBARASSMENT! Obviously, it's going to be easy with the AI on Normal, but it was truly indescribable in terms of how embarassingly easy the Russians were obliterated by me.


I don't think what you said about the Dutch in any way mirrors what was going on in the game. They weren't seeking lucrative trade opportunities---they were intentionally demanding impossible things, then causing us to suffer relationship damage because of it.

[89ShadowUK]

I'm having trouble too,

As Great Britain, I started out, my first move was to attempt to get friendly with as many nations as possible, to avoid war while I readied armies and agents for my planned invasion of Spain, yes, it's always my first move.

Anyway, Prussia, randomly sent a navy, consisting of two or three units of Sloops, over, and blockaded my port. After removing them, I tried to call for a peace treaty, they wouldnt have any of it, but the question is, why me? why send a small navy to a heavily defended home land? Surly they gained nothing?

Following the random outburst, and refusale to ceasefire, I borded my fleet with one and a half stacks, and invaded Prussia, the war was quick and swift, Prussia had been at war with Poland I believe, and obviously had lost a lot of their army, but within a couple of turns, I had taken all their land, and destroyed the faction.

Suddenly Poland, Wutternburg, Venice, Genoa, Austria, Sweden, Spain, and Bavaria, declare war on me in the space of 5-6 turns, now, why? surly the minor factions had no quarries with me? why start a war you can't afford to fight? I try to get a ceasefire, and avoid having to send troops in just yet, and they CONSTANTLY ask for Ireland, and about 460 money...

So now, it's gotten very sticky, Fighting Poland on my eastern border, Austria and the minor factions on my left, I think it's going to be the best option to just full my troops back from the borders and try to restack, but I'm so annoyed by the minor factions just declaring war on whiever is close. The Italian States also declared war on me, shortly after my troops moved in to engage Venice.

SOmeone mentioned United Provinces asking for stupid deals? Same here, they always want me to give them 20 Military Access, for a trade agreement, and want Ireland/Scotland regions all the time, EVERY turn, although allianced with them, and the Ottoman Empire.

Frustrating.

[Daria]

I'm having trouble too,

As Great Britain, I started out, my first move was to attempt to get friendly with as many nations as possible, to avoid war while I readied armies and agents for my planned invasion of Spain, yes, it's always my first move.

Anyway, Prussia, randomly sent a navy, consisting of two or three units of Sloops, over, and blockaded my port. After removing them, I tried to call for a peace treaty, they wouldnt have any of it, but the question is, why me? why send a small navy to a heavily defended home land? Surly they gained nothing?

Following the random outburst, and refusale to ceasefire, I borded my fleet with one and a half stacks, and invaded Prussia, the war was quick and swift, Prussia had been at war with Poland I believe, and obviously had lost a lot of their army, but within a couple of turns, I had taken all their land, and destroyed the faction.

Suddenly Poland, Wutternburg, Venice, Genoa, Austria, Sweden, Spain, and Bavaria, declare war on me in the space of 5-6 turns, now, why? surly the minor factions had no quarries with me? why start a war you can't afford to fight? I try to get a ceasefire, and avoid having to send troops in just yet, and they CONSTANTLY ask for Ireland, and about 460 money...

So now, it's gotten very sticky, Fighting Poland on my eastern border, Austria and the minor factions on my left, I think it's going to be the best option to just full my troops back from the borders and try to restack, but I'm so annoyed by the minor factions just declaring war on whiever is close. The Italian States also declared war on me, shortly after my troops moved in to engage Venice.

SOmeone mentioned United Provinces asking for stupid deals? Same here, they always want me to give them 20 Military Access, for a trade agreement, and want Ireland/Scotland regions all the time, EVERY turn, although allianced with them, and the Ottoman Empire.

Frustrating.

Prussia always seems to get involved when I'm playing Britain. After declaring war on me then sent a full stack of ships to attack my home ports. Since my only defense fleet at the time was a flagship, two third rates, and a brig, I assumed that I was in for a world of hurt. That was until I attacked them. And guess what? A fleet full of friggen indiaman! The second most pathetic ship in the game!* I sunk the whole fleet with barley a scratch on my side, and the next turn they proceeded to ask me for a peace treaty.....in exchange for Scotland and the Bahamas. O_o

*For those of you who have only played northern factions, the most pathetic ship in the game are galleys. These little ships that the african and middle eastern factions use. They have only two guns, and tend to blow up when the slightest gust of wind hits them. I would trade full stacks of the things for a brig.

[NJGOAT]

I can see the frustration and occasionally share it when it comes to the AI. I think the difference is that I rather enjoy the AI screwing up my day and making me react to different situations. The worst thing and a game breaker at that is when the AI is simply complacent and lets the player run their campaign exactly how they want to. If you want a sim-city-esque experience where you can build your territories and armies as you see fit and the AI simply waits for you to attack them, play on easy.

I do agree that the player hate is pretty annoying and the AI certainly has room for improvement, but I don't think that it is entirely retarded or that all the things complained about in this thread were necessarily bad, other than they took people off their game.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

It is INCREDIBLY bad. It's not so much a war simulation or sim-city-esque experience as it is a (oh irony!) MODERN DAY EMPIRE TOTAL WAR! We didn't WANT Afghanistan---but if we didn't conquer it, the Taliban would keep harboring terrorists to go after us!

Somehow, I can always depend on the Thirteen Colonies, even when their allies attack me, to sit back and do nothing. I can always depend on Prussia and the minor Germanic factions to meander about and do nothing, or Poland-Lithuania to just sit and watch me kill Russia.

And every other faction declares war on me, and I'm essentially FORCED to not only stop them, but to conquer their lands and add them to my Empire.

So I'm not so much an Imperial power as I am the reluctant mass-murderer, where my war with Faction Q has only come about because Faction K bordered them, and then attacked me, and forced me to take their territory lest they be at constant war with me. So now Faction Q feels it must attack me. So I attack and conquer Faction Q, only for Faction X to feel threatened bordering them, and attacking me! All while Faction H, which bordered both Q and K, doesn't even want to trade with me and does nothing else, and Faction Bleen, all the way in Butt, Nowhere, declares war on me, just so they can blockade a major trade port with a naval fleet literally in the middle of enemy territory, and is subsequently vaporized by a coalition of seven other factions' navies.


It's like the necessity of self-preservation leads to conquering one nation, then another, then another, due simply to them declaring war on me exactly for my actions of self-preservation. So what do I do? Let them take my capital? Or beat them only to let them recuperate and attack again? Or give them eight or seventeen technologies in exchange for peace they will break in 8 turns?


That's not how I work. And thus, I have an empire that spans all of western Europe, western North Africa, northern Europe, Italy, northern Russia, south-eastern North America, the entire Caribbean, all of mid-eastern Canada, all of the Louisiana Purchase-territory.

Guess how much of that territory I actually wanted. The Caribbean and all of North America and Canada.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

Well that's good to hear. I always held off on building Galleys, due to the fact that they had triangular sails and looked very stiff and angular, compared to the more rounded, sharp, pointy-looking Brigs and Sloops.

I completed my British Campaign, and while I was playing on Normal Mode, I can say the only real challenging and/or brilliant AI was the Maratha Confederacy. Holy hell, these chuckles were nasty, dangerous, and brutally brilliant. They came out of butt nowhere with a great many assaults on major trading areas (they took one of my cities in the Caribbean!!!!) and I finally launched an expedition force to India, and it was like every fictional story of a Vietnam/Iraq/Korea/Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now type war story you can imagine. We set up a foothold, they lobby their allies to bleed against us, then smash us with their own massive army. That expedition force is DEAD.

I send a larger force, and manage to take another major city, and bribe the Confederacy into a peace treaty. At some point, this gets broken off and war re-opens, and they manage to not only out-think me, but out-strategize me so that an evenly matched campaign with like 4,000 on each side becomes a full rout, as I detach a major part of my navy in order to evacuate one general and 500 troops out of India.


That was the greatest fun, and it all happened in the last 25 years of the campaign.


On the positive side, the Ottoman Empire couldn't have been more congenial. They freely offered a trade agreement and a permanent alliance without demanding anything in return, and they were truly crucial in keeping the Marathans out of Europe, by virtue of the Ottomans' own survival---the Marathans had taken land south of Russia across the Caspian Sea, and the Ottomans kept them there, preventing them from expanding.

[British-Bulldog]

From what I've read, it seems everyone hates the AI XD, although I have to agree. In one British game, Prussia declared war on the Thirteen Colonies, dragging me into yet another war. Wtf? :/

[Sdurani]

Yea I've noticed this too.

While playing as Prussia, I was declared war on by Sweden, Britain, and the Ottomans in a couple turns, and then later, by Wurttenberg and Westphalia. I thought it made sense for Wurttenberg and Westphalia to attack me since I was already fighting a war with the above mentioned and Austria. I would have done the same. What I don't get about the AI is how I've had 2 peace treaties with Austria since they first attacked me and they again declare war on me...it's just like wtf? And also, I can never seem to ally with the Marathas, even tho we are Very friendly nations to each other. I offer tech and/or money and they still shoot me down.

It's just frustrating, but then again, it's total war.