Why was the game 'dumbed' down in the mod?!?

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I'm playing for some time now and I'm wondering why certain strategic elements seem to be removed from the mod. First, where are my merchants?! In vanilla ME2, they were an important source of income. (I can understand why princesses were removed though...). I also miss the option to rebuild a city to a castle and vice verca. In vanilla ME2 it was important to get a good balancing between cities and castles. Especially when faced with very 'unsatisfied' cities, it was very helpfull to rebuild them to castles to get them under control. Castles were also required to get the elite troops while the cities were responsible for money. But at least with HE, I don't seem to need any elite troops. The basic troops are good enough for everything. But, okay, maybe that's just a HE everything is elite thing. My friend also said that he can't build harbours as Mordor. Why???

I do like the scenario very much and the mod is without any doubt well made, but in general I had the impression that vanilla ME2 offered me a much deeper gameplay on a strategic level. That's surprising, since mods usually increase the game play and not vice verca. I expected more something like FFH2 (greatest civ mod of all time) for ME2. But maybe the mod is more for LOTR fans than strategic freaks...

[Beregond]

It's all about Lore.
Merchants were not much important in Middle-Earth. also how'd you imagine an Orc Merchant?
Also there are many imp castles and cities in ME that would look dumb if converted. How'd you like a Minas Morgul City?I also think it's because of unique strat models.

and Orcs fear the water-> no ports for Mordor

[Jean=A=Luc]

It's mostly for lore and, to an extent, gameplay reasons. I'd hardly call merchants a "deep" gameplay element. I found them mostly annoying and when it comes to income they're quite unnecessary too.

Converting cities is off to conform with the lore. Imagine Hobbiton or Bree as "citadels".

In any case "dumbed down" is definitely too harsh a term.

[Myshkin]

Well, I do not think the reason merchants have been removed was lore. I think it was balance. IMO, they did it so the game remains a challenge during the middle-game.

Yes, I can imagine an orc merchant. These people got food there somehow, right? So someone made a deal.

Anyway, there are many sub-mods which will give you what you are looking for. Have a look around.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Yes, I can imagine an orc merchant. These people got food there somehow, right?

It wasn't trade, believe you me.

[Athalwulf]

These people got food there somehow, right?

Yes. By hunting and cannibalism. You don't need a merchant for that.

[Seleukos_I.]

Yes. By hunting and cannibalism. You don't need a merchant for that.

Wrong. They lived of the food grown by slaves in Nurn.

[Juli]

Also, an unlucky human, from time to time

Da' tarks are hard to hunt, though

[Myshkin]

But? Wether it is trade or a kind of an organised exchange I do not know. Do all orcs who work in the mines spare the time to go hunting? How would orcs feed their slaves?

From what I read here and there, there have been reports of non-orcs trading with Mordor and Isengard, like the port of Lond Daer.

[PSIHOPAT]

I am agree with ArkhanTheBlack

I want all of this back.

Maybe the team will make some optional versions because there are many people who want this things back.

If the TATW team is not interested,than maybe some skilled persons will do that in one sub-mod,because is big request for that.

[FriendoftheDork]

I actually agree with the merchant point, I can't see why they wouldn't fit into LotR. Sure, You might remove all merchants from Mordor and OotMM, as it is said orcs have little reasons to trade and rather take what they want or get it from Mordor's (evil) administration. Oh, and if you want to know how a Bureaucrat of Mordor looks like this can give you an idea :



The rest of the faction surely do trade, and where there is trade there are merchants. Dwarven merchants brings gems, weapons, metals etc. to trade with the men of Dale and sometimes even Elves, and the evil human factions must trade with one another.

Even Saruman had a cache of human goods, mostly gotten through trade I suppose, although he would probably use humans for this purpose, not orcs.

I doubt merchant trade will affect ecconomy that much for the AI, as the benefit is usually meagre except for rare cases. A human might be tempted to send High Elven merchant to trade in Far harad because of the strange merchant trade system. Exactly how a merchant can spend years just traveling to Timbuctou and then teleport high-value gold straight home every turn is beyond me, not to mention how grain from constantinople is more valauble for England than the same amounts sent from france...

So lore wise there is no good reason to exclude merchants, but I don't really miss them in my game, they were mostly good for hostile takovers anyway. I would much prefer having a merchant system closer to EU or maybe something between that and Empire - being able to use merchants kinda like trade ships and send them to trade centers could work pretty well.

As for the castle converting, I agree with the other posters here. Besides the timeline of LotR is too short to allow for much castle/city conversion anyway.
Again it's something I don't really miss.

The strategic challenge in TATW comes from certain scripts to help the AI - some factions are also much harder than normal. I'm currently struggling with my VH/VH Rohan game with RR/RC mod, and it's not easy when Mordor has half of Gondor and can pump out stack after stack effortlessly.


Ports for Mordor should definetivly be added in though, not much needed for mordor orcs but after conquering Gondor I'm sure they could find enough humans to sail ships. And while orcs do not like water, they still used boats in Osgilliath didn't they?

I'm pretty sure PB could make a script file for this in like 5 minutes.. you listening PB? Modding buildings is still beyond me although units are fairly easy.

[Achilla]

Actually being able to convert settlements is game dumbing element ... it doesn't matter what key settlements you own but just how many ... suddenly your border settlements become castles and everything else gives you tons of money as cities and you end up with 80'000 florins income each turn. Suddenly capturing that citadel after a bloody battle is completely worthless since you could make your any other settlement a castle and then upgrade to citadel. Not to mention the lore rape ...

As for the merchants they were hardly 'deep'. Major annoyance, especially since AI merchants were impossible to take out by your merchants and they had like 95% success rate no matter what to seize assets of your own merchants. Usually either income very minor or over the top, another balancing nightmare which brought nothing to the game.

[Myshkin]

I agree. If merchents were to be implemented they would need to be more balanced for sure. At the end of the day they are very hard to control as well.

[PSIHOPAT]

Usually either income very minor or over the top, another balancing nightmare which brought nothing to the game.

WRONG POINT

If we want to improve something must add something not to throw away.

What is wrong must be improved/adapted...but not to be thrown in the trash.

[Muffer Nl]

WRONG POINT

If we want to improve something must add something not to throw away.

What is wrong must be improved/adapted...but not to be thrown in the trash.

Wrong.
You can not only improve by adding things. You can also improve by removing things. For example:
Vista added a lot of things on top of XP. Did the OS improve? No it didn´t. It became unstable and crashed often. Windows 7 is a lighter, stripped down version of Windows Vista. Windows 7 is a lot better then Vista is and is ever going to be. By throwing away unnecessary things they improved.

[PSIHOPAT]

Wrong.
You can not only improve by adding things. You can also improve by removing things. For example:
Vista added a lot of things on top of XP. Did the OS improve? No it didn´t. It became unstable and crashed often. Windows 7 is a lighter, stripped down version of Windows Vista. Windows 7 is a lot better then Vista is and is ever going to be. By throwing away unnecessary things they improved.

WRONG

Comparison is wrong

If we want to make Third Age much more better we must to add/improve/correct things from M2TW.

Merchants,priest,princess,assassins,spy are very important things who make the game much more interesting.

If something is wrong with they,we must find a way to adapt them...but not to call them as a trash,because they are not.

I compare this things with the games with or without mod options or sub-mod section.Games with less variety became boring after some time....no mater if they are good or not.Many options allow to the player possibility for almost infinite strategy.Anything that is very rigid is not so funny;is boring...

[FriendoftheDork]

WRONG

Comparison is wrong

If we want to make Third Age much more better we must to add/improve/correct things from M2TW.

Merchants,priest,princess,assassins,spy are very important things who make the game much more interesting.

If something is wrong with they,we must find a way to adapt them...but not to call them as a trash,because they are not.

I compare this things with the games with or without mod options or sub-mod section.Games with less variety became boring after some time....no mater if they are good or not.Many options allow to the player possibility for almost infinite strategy.Anything that is very rigid is not so funny;is boring...

Do you really believe that adding something is always good and removing something is always bad?

Maybe you forgot the expression: "The artist reaches perfection, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

Generally speaking, there are good addition and there are bad additions. Alot of people here Doesen't think princesses and merchants belong, some disagree but shouting WRONG in red letters doesen't really prove anything. And his comparison was actually very fitting.

In MY Humble Opinion princesses could be a nice addition as long as it is implemented properly. The Witch King obviously doesen't have beautiful human daughters to give away, but princesses for human factions fits and is even "Lore."

Merchants could work - maybe have them as an option you could toggle? Or at least a text file you could use to get them in.

How exactly do you think Priests will fit in? You want catholics and muslims running around middle earth?

[Vhaelor]

WRONG

Comparison is wrong

If we want to make Third Age much more better we must to add/improve/correct things from M2TW.

Merchants,priest,princess,assassins,spy are very important things who make the game much more interesting.

If something is wrong with they,we must find a way to adapt them...but not to call them as a trash,because they are not.

I compare this things with the games with or without mod options or sub-mod section.Games with less variety became boring after some time....no mater if they are good or not.Many options allow to the player possibility for almost infinite strategy.Anything that is very rigid is not so funny;is boring...

Frankly... If you want this: Go play Vanilla. I'm serious.

I for one do NOT want a Middle Earth with tradesmen and priests running around. Ruins the mood completely. As for conversion of Cities to castles and vice versa...I mean...

Western middle Earth, especially Gondor and Rohan were at *war*. They neither had time nor the resources to waste money and manpower on such things. In game, the first battles take place after only 4-5 turns, meaning it's gone two years since you began. Do you reckon that all of Pelargir would be convertable to a mighty castle of Gondor in just a few years, when the entire nation is at war?

Thank you, I'd like to keep my lore-based TATW for now. Granted, not all things are lore based since there's things taken from the movies here and there, but the essence of the mod is. Adding priests and whatnot will frankly destroy that essence.

No. Thanks.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

All your posts over here say the same thing,what the 1rst page says does the 2nd 3rd and so on.This is getting boring and you can see that actually King Kong posted on this thread!Wouldn't he have said that he may add them back?And if he has to choose you think he would choose what the less say?C'mon guys you are still sleeping.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I for one do NOT want a Middle Earth with tradesmen and priests running around. Ruins the mood completely.

What exactly do you think are people doing in the various trade buildings like market place of the current TA?!? Throwing eggs and carots around? You don't think there are any 'tradesmen' working in those buildings? It's okay to don't like the implementation of a certain feature, but I think Tolkien would turn in his grave if he knew that there are people who question the existence of simple 'tradesmen' in his world. Exchange of goods is the most basic requirement of a civilized community. Expert workers usually don't have time to go hunting, plant salad, and create all the basic tools needed for work and home. What exactly do you think is the purpose of 'money'? You can't eat it, you can't drink it, you can't make clothes with...

And considering priests... I think Middle Earth has at least one religion, and that's the Valar. We have a zillion different religions on earth and most of them have priests, shamans, medicine men or something similar to honour them. You really think there are no priests at all in middle earth? That also means no temples, churches, or even believers. Tolkien would probably rotate in his grave...

Western middle Earth, especially Gondor and Rohan were at *war*. They neither had time nor the resources to waste money and manpower on such things. In game, the first battles take place after only 4-5 turns, meaning it's gone two years since you began. Do you reckon that all of Pelargir would be convertable to a mighty castle of Gondor in just a few years, when the entire nation is at war?

Hmm... sure, but is it more logical to build a big stone wall around a city in a few turns? If we remove everything which isn't logical from the mod there won't be anything left.


Please don't abuse Tolkien lore if you just don't like the implementation of a certain feature! There are already not existing settlements and god knows how much other objects in the mod which are certainly not documented in the Silmarilon or the LOTR books. Therefore, the mod already rapes Tolkien lore to get a decent gameplay, which is simply a necessity in my opinion. Therefore, if you are a real Tolkien lore fanatic, you can't play the mod.