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Thread: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

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  1. #1

    Default Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Well so i recently reinstalled M2TW:K, after being bored with ETW and its flickering campaign map, awful naval combat and tiny world map..
    (i cant wait until you modders figure out how to make a SS-style world map in ETW, medieval timeperiod too plz?!)

    And of course the first thing i did was to download SS and all latest patches as well as the RR+RC compilation.
    After a day of doing nothing but reading changelogs and forum replies about "OMIGOD NOE! ITS SO HARRD WHAT...... I DONT.. CHANGE IT!" , i was kinda intimidated.
    I was never a pro at the Total War games, i usually just play them from time to time to kill boredom, i hardly even know what most units stats are like. I dont even think i've used all units or seen all buildings in vanilla m2tw!

    All the mod topics just went on and on and made it sound more like a omg-serious-business game, than an actual, game for fun.
    But then i just started a new campaign on Hard/Hard as Aragon and went on with it.
    And its prolly the most fun i've had ever in a Total War game. Not too hard at all, not unfair, not overly serious.
    I mean its just natural, your general sieges a castle for 6 turns, his men looses morale, big deal.
    An AI enemy gets a few "unfair" bonuses that enables them to heal their armies (since they cant retrain). Big deal.

    The end result is a far more FUN game than vanilla, and than all these feature lists and changenotes portray.
    Reading them, it sounds even more boring than the Europa Universalis games. But playing it is more fun than most other games.


    I guess my point just is that for anyone intimidated by the constant talk of how "Suddenly more ULTRA UBER DIFFICULT IT IS, even EXPERTS have a hard time!!", its just a bunch of nonsense. Try it, play it.
    Also, those obsessed with game AI's having NO unfair bonuses need to check out the game called AI War http://arcengames.com/aiwar_features.php

    Its based on a pretty unusual concept. Imbalance for balance. The AI is a completely different faction, playing by completely different rules than the human players. This enables fine-tuning of balance with simple things such as ai-economy tweaks, without messing up the entire gameplay aspect of individual units or buildings (amagad the AI doesnt build enough churches! buff churches! o wait that affects humans too)

    I pretty much hated imbalance in rts games and turn based games before, but after that game (and now SS) i see the point.
    Single player games that try to be balanced vs AI factions have a flaw in their very nature, that an AI can never be balanced with a human, not in anything other than chess or grid-based games.
    We arent fighting against other humans, we're fighting against the game. So lets just make it as fun as possible, because thats what matters. There is no balance without imbalanced AI's.

    I think we remained for far too long in the pong or boardgame mindset. Of two exactly equal opponents.
    The problem is, that doesnt work as games become more complex. It just doesnt.
    Unless you want the game to be on a 10x10 grid with just green grass, no terrain, no difference, no variety, you can't have perfect balance vs AI's.
    Its just time for the games industry to grasp this as well.

    And as for talk of realism.. Real life is the most unbalanced piece of ever!
    Old school games, Tank Armor research lvl 1 = +5 armor, -5 speed.
    Real life, Tank Armor composite materials research = armor that cant even be penetrated by an rpg, that can withstand dozens of anti-tank shells, AND that is lighter AND thereby making the vehicle faster!
    The Tiger tank is a good example of imbalance in real life, that thing has NEVER been represented the proper way in any WW2 game i know of, it would just be a win button.
    Last edited by Baleurion; December 13, 2009 at 07:56 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    I'm not sure how to reply but I never listened to people complaining about difficulty anyway

  3. #3

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Simplest way to progress is play all your battles on Medium, and then play the campaign on Medium. Complete that, then play it on Very Hard. Keep practising, and then go for VH/VH. Good fun.

    [ Cry Havoc:: ] - [ link ] - [ An Expanded World Submod for Call of Warhammer ]
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    "Imbalance for balance"? That makes no sense. It isn't "balanced" when enemy militia get 3 more attack points than your dismounted knights do. This is probably the biggest flaw of SS is that the AI troops get unfair stat bonuses no matter what difficulty; thus there really are no changes to AI intelligence, but there are to stats. It sounds like SS changes the game from "strategy to win" to "since the AI had stupidly high stats, you have to have them outnumbered 20 - 1 to win".

    Why people can't just make AI improvements, I don't know. They always have to add some useless BS to it.

  5. #5
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by RuleBritannia View Post
    "Imbalance for balance"? That makes no sense. It isn't "balanced" when enemy militia get 3 more attack points than your dismounted knights do. This is probably the biggest flaw of SS is that the AI troops get unfair stat bonuses no matter what difficulty; thus there really are no changes to AI intelligence, but there are to stats. It sounds like SS changes the game from "strategy to win" to "since the AI had stupidly high stats, you have to have them outnumbered 20 - 1 to win".
    There is more to unit effectiveness than just their attack value. Attack delay, weapon type and even the specific animation they use all come in to play (and that's just for starters). Just looking at the attack value to evaluate unit effectiveness will only result in wildly innaccurate assessments.

    Why people can't just make AI improvements, I don't know. They always have to add some useless BS to it.
    Because they can only change so much when it comes to the AI. AI modders can only edit the decisions that lay over the top of the AI system. They cannot change the underlying base of the AI as that is hardcoded. As I have said in the past, modding the AI is like painting a turd: sure it looks colourful and pretty, but it's still crap underneath.

    At the end of the day, you can always put your money where your mouth is and make one yourself

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  6. #6

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Clivus View Post
    At the end of the day, you can always put your money where your mouth is and make one yourself

    Amen.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Clivus View Post
    At the end of the day, you can always put your money where your mouth is and make one yourself
    Man, I hate when people say that.. no offense. And I know you're a mod of this forum.. but seriously. Why are you not allowed to critique software unless you yourself are a programmer? If nobody ever complains then what reason is there for programmers to enhance their abilities?

    It's like telling me I can't critique the government unless I decide to run for some sort of office. Or I can't critique hot dogs unless I'm a hot dog manufacturer.

    Meh. Sorry. It's like the third time I read somebody say this today and it just had to come out.

  8. #8
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by runtheplacered View Post
    Man, I hate when people say that.. no offense. And I know you're a mod of this forum.. but seriously. Why are you not allowed to critique software unless you yourself are a programmer? If nobody ever complains then what reason is there for programmers to enhance their abilities?
    Constructive criticism sure. But I am yet to see anything that is constructive here. All I see is a total disregard for the amazing improvements that AI programmers have done over what was in the vanilla game. Programming the AI to actually do what you want it to is a very difficult task, made all the more difficult by the restrictions placed upon them by what they can actually change.

    It's like telling me I can't critique the government unless I decide to run for some sort of office. Or I can't critique hot dogs unless I'm a hot dog manufacturer.
    To continue that analogy, if you teach yourself how to cook then you can better critique other people's cooking while at the same time learning new skills for yourself. When I started modding, I knew nothing about modelling or texturing. But I taught myself how to do those things as well as other things to do with modding this game. Instead of complaining about Novgorod's roster, I chose to learn how to change it myself. That is what I meant by that comment.
    Last edited by Caesar Clivus; December 15, 2009 at 03:28 AM.

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  9. #9

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    It's like telling me I can't critique the government unless I decide to run for some sort of office. Or I can't critique hot dogs unless I'm a hot dog manufacturer.

    Exactly. If you're not contributing, you're just taking. I don't mod, I don't have the time. However I appreciate the immense unpaid hours that the modders in this community put in to improve my leisure time. If you think something is a trifle unbalanced/overpowered/unrealistic, put it out there in an intelligent and respectful manner.
    The modders need advice and criticism, but if that comes in the form of totally uneducated whining, pontificating and drivel, it's completely worthless to them. If you want to hold opinions with no basis in reality or practicality, read Sarah Palin's auto-biography. You'll enjoy it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Then why did I manage to take a Village using only fresh recruited half stack Palace Guard and Varangian full stack against a VH stack of Denmark War Clerics and Obudshaer?

    It's not exactly that Hard, it's just when combined.

    [ Cry Havoc:: ] - [ link ] - [ An Expanded World Submod for Call of Warhammer ]
    My turban brings all the muslims to the yard and they're like العنصرية ش

  11. #11

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    "Why people can't just make AI improvements, I don't know. They always have to add some useless BS to it."

    That doesn't sound like constructive criticism to me. Just "I'm annoyed" criticism.

    Nobody denied him or yourself for that matter the right to critique software. CC was just critiquing the poster's comments. If he was disallowing it, he would've just deleted the post.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Read Sarah Palin's auto-biography? I wouldn't dare touch that holy relic.

  13. #13
    Navajo Joe's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by meese View Post
    Read Sarah Palin's auto-biography? I wouldn't dare touch that holy relic.
    Clarification please, is it that Sarah Palin is the Holy Relic or the Autobiography!!!

    That reminds me, that is 'Pig' and 'Lipstick', is it not.

    Why on earth, does anybody feel that by ranting away, about things they have no understanding of, is credible. I am truly grateful of the all the time and effort all modders have put into this game. The thing is, this mod is like a magnet, I always attracted back to it. I have played other MTW2 and RTW mods, but they are truly not in the same league.

    LONG LIVE STAINLESS STEEL, LONG LIVE KING KONG, LONG LIVE THE KHURCH





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  14. #14

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    I've yet to see much in the way of valid criticism of SS here. If you have a problem with AI units having a +3 stat bonus, then stop playing on Hard battle difficulty....

    If you want better AI....tough? I suppose DarthMod might be better...Is DarthMod part of SS? I don't know. Anyway...

    Yeah. Props to Baleurion, though.

  15. #15
    JorisofHolland's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    I only critique other people who are posting annoying criticism.
    There is no reason why not to, not in this thread nor in any other I've read.
    The Enemy of Human Souls
    Sat grieving at the cost of coals;
    For Hell had been annexed of late,
    And was a sovereign Southern State.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    I'm confused. I thought (unlike RTW) that MTW had done away with the hard stat bonus to AI units in battles. Does SS bring them back? I'm not bothered at all by any campaign level bonus to the AI but I can't stand a bonus to the AI in battle. It's a completely different kettle of fish confronting 10 units of spearmen to your one, where it's clear you're in for a horrible defeat, than confronting their spear with your spear and losing horribly and it not being clear why.

    I was just about to start a VH/VH campaign but it'll have to be VH/M if there's battlestat bonus at stake.

  17. #17
    JorisofHolland's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    There are bonusses. Not sure about vanilla (who cares?) as you are a great commander compared to the AI. Yes, even you.
    The Enemy of Human Souls
    Sat grieving at the cost of coals;
    For Hell had been annexed of late,
    And was a sovereign Southern State.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Even me? What have you seen in my 5 or so posts that has given you such insight into my skill level?

    If the AI stat bonus isn't in vanilla, which is what was stated in the mtw2 wiki faq, then it seems a crappy thing to have added in SS. Sure it makes the game harder, but who wants to see spear militia beating the snot out of elite infantry 1 on 1? That would ruin my experience. Giving the AI huge amounts of gold goes on behind the scenes, but that would be right in your face.

    Is that all that changes from M to VH battle difficulty? If so it's no problem since I can just play medium.

    For reference, taken from the MTW faq located here:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...68830#crusades

    "Does a higher difficulty level give the AI troops stat or morale bonuses?
    No, unlike RTW, difficulty level affects only how the AI plays the game and reacts. A higher difficulty level will mean the AI plays more intelligently, while a lower difficulty level means the AI does not.

    There are no morale/stat bonues based on difficulty level in M2TW."

  19. #19

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sombre View Post
    Even me? What have you seen in my 5 or so posts that has given you such insight into my skill level?
    It was a joke. One of those 5 posts are WAAAY too serious.

    [ Cry Havoc:: ] - [ link ] - [ An Expanded World Submod for Call of Warhammer ]
    My turban brings all the muslims to the yard and they're like العنصرية ش

  20. #20

    Default Re: Intimidation turns to roflcopters. Imbalance for balance!

    If one reads the post clearly and with a light heart, one can see Joris means to address everyone in general and the people who disparage their own ability at command in particular.

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