Some things about cities....

[Graycloak]

Okay, first off while I understand the concept behind the "garrison script" I have a couple of problems with it. THe AI builds bad armies, nothing seems to fix that; hardcoding in the occasional "god" stack with this script doesn't fix that. It just becomes a "gamey" nuisance. Secondly, from a purely logical perspective, surely the spawned stack should be mostly levy troops with perhaps a small core of palace guards? Lastly, aside from the work involved - if garrison scripting is justified, it needs to be used nearly everywhere.

Other big issue: is there a way to turn down pop growth or seriously reduce the unrest penalty? It is just silly watching supposedly civilized factions having to sack there own bloated and ungovernable cities. (and yes it happens eventually even with no farms)

Finally, any way to increase the bonus to order from garrisons ? I've just watched a 400 pop town somehow revolt and throw out a 1000man garrison three times in a row.

[magraev]

I agree about the garrisons being unbalanced. I usually won't attack a city with garrison-script unless I can attack immediately.

You could make huge cities give a large pop-penalty in the edu i suppose - so a city that reaches huge size will shrink and not become over-large. Not sure you can make a farming-x work though? Should be tested maybe.

I don't know of a way to make garrisons amount to more than 80% order, but surely that should be enough in almost all cases. Put some spies in the city to root out any troublemakers (and stay out of ethiopia if that is where your problems are - huge unrest there).

[DimeBagHo]

Okay, first off while I understand the concept behind the "garrison script" I have a couple of problems with it. THe AI builds bad armies, nothing seems to fix that; hardcoding in the occasional "god" stack with this script doesn't fix that. It just becomes a "gamey" nuisance.

The garrison scripts aren't intended to make up for poor AI recruitment, they're intended to make up for the AI not defending strategic cities, and to prevent blitzing.

Secondly, from a purely logical perspective, surely the spawned stack should be mostly levy troops with perhaps a small core of palace guards?

Historically that wasn't the case. Rome was defended by the Praetorians, Carthage by the Sacred Band, and in Greek world the best equipped and trained troops were usually the wealthy citizen class who often didn't fight unless their city was threatened. It was also quite common for major cities to maintain armouries stocked with high quality equipment.

Lastly, aside from the work involved - if garrison scripting is justified, it needs to be used nearly everywhere.

Unfortunately that isn't practical without using a background script. The method used in XGM requires quite a lot of work for each settlement.

Other big issue: is there a way to turn down pop growth or seriously reduce the unrest penalty? It is just silly watching supposedly civilized factions having to sack there own bloated and ungovernable cities. (and yes it happens eventually even with no farms)

I haven't noticed this being much of a problem though it's something that is quite difficult to balance. Population growth rates depend heavily on the unit size. A slow growth rate with small units, would be a negative growth rate with large units.

Finally, any way to increase the bonus to order from garrisons ? I've just watched a 400 pop town somehow revolt and throw out a 1000man garrison three times in a row.

Unfortunately that's hardcoded. In RTW there is one population number that imperfectly represents three different populations: (1) Recruitable manpower; (2) Population of the settlement; Population of the region. So there are many features of the way that population works that don't quite make sense.

[Graycloak]

Well it could just be me, but I find the garrison scripts encourage more "gamey" play rather than discouraging it; many of them are such a nuisance that you simply don't attack the city unless you bury it under spies first or use siege engines to blitz it anyways. I'd rather fight a decent siege attack against militia and the godsawful towers than feel I have to gimmick my way past a "god" stack.

I suppose the composition of the stack is a matter of how large an army you see it as representing; my expectation would be that unit or two of praetorians or sacred band would represent the lot, much like the spartan guard unit for example. I'd have no problem with with a couple of units of elites backed up by militia, it's the whole stack of full upgraded good troops that drives me a bit nuts at times; they are just better armies than anyone can reasonalbly keep in the field. (or than can be reasonably dislodged from a city without the use of more gimmicks)

I suspected the garrison scripts were a lot of work; how much trouble would making it an option (like land bridges) that could be turned off be?

On the population front I always play with at least Large units and unless I deliberately spread plagues around and do other gimmicks to lower pop, I find that nearly every settlement ends up with major unrest due to overpopulation, even with large garrisons. Of course it gets much worse, much faster if I build any farm improvements early on.

[DimeBagHo]

they are just better armies than anyone can reasonalbly keep in the field

That's actually why the garrisons make sense. It would have been politically and economically impossible to keep the elite forces of a city state, or even an empire, in the field for any length of time. That's why most of the campaign armies in the period consisted of levies and mercenaries. Rich, powerful, well armed men are not going to spend years on end hiking all over the countryside unless there is *a lot* of money or power to be gained. Poor men are easier to motivate.

But if you don't like the scripts you can avoid them just by ignoring the advisor that pops up.

[Publius Quirinus]

That's actually why the garrisons make sense. It would have been politically and economically impossible to keep the elite forces of a city state, or even an empire, in the field for any length of time. That's why most of the campaign armies in the period consisted of levies and mercenaries. Rich, powerful, well armed men are not going to spend years on end hiking all over the countryside unless there is *a lot* of money or power to be gained. Poor men are easier to motivate.

That's part of the problem though imo-- these elite garrisons don't disband after the defense of their city, and often do end up actually spending years on end hiking all over the countryside.

I still think the concept of garrison scripts is sound, but I do feel that it should be toned down a bit. Yes, blitzing an enemy capital with a teeny army should be discouraged, but should still be possible (though difficult) with some preparation in the early-game, instead of outright impossible.

Though that may be due to my personal lack of skill, I guess.

[Alavaria]

That's part of the problem though imo-- these elite garrisons don't disband after the defense of their city, and often do end up actually spending years on end hiking all over the countryside.

Oh lol. I actually wondered it it might be possible to trigger the stack then get them across a river or something so that they can't save their city afterwards.

Without that or the "draw garrison in to insta-take a settlement" trick, it's down to onagers - which are expensive and annoying to get to,

Yes, blitzing an enemy capital with a teeny army should be discouraged, but should still be possible (though difficult) with some preparation in the early-game, instead of outright impossible.

Though that may be due to my personal lack of skill, I guess.

If the garrison wouldn't sally, and they weren't almost always relieved by some troops, it would be easy to kill them all by using their wall towers on the AI. However the stack is so elite, the AI knows it can take on two or even three stacks of standard troops and will easily.

[Graycloak]

But if you don't like the scripts you can avoid them just by ignoring the advisor that pops up.

Really? Never knew that...

Is there any upper limit on unrest caused by overpopulation? Or anyway to lower the growth rate with higher level cities so pop growth levels off at the top? Hmm....I assume the number of "slots" for buildings is limited? If not, a top level building like "emigration" or something that lowered pop growth might be useful.

[DimeBagHo]

Is there any upper limit on unrest caused by overpopulation? Or anyway to lower the growth rate with higher level cities so pop growth levels off at the top? Hmm....I assume the number of "slots" for buildings is limited? If not, a top level building like "emigration" or something that lowered pop growth might be useful.

There's no upper limit to squalor, which reduces happiness and population growth. So population will level out at a certain point. The issue is whether the population can be kept happy at the point where it levels out. In XGM there are a number of happiness and law buildings to help out with that, and most of the farming and growth bonuses from buildings either level out early or even disappear from the top level buildings. The AI also gets extra happiness and law bonuses.

The biggest problem that the AI has with maintaining order is just that it doesn't maintain large enough garrisons, and that can't be fixed.

[Alavaria]

There's no upper limit to squalor, which reduces happiness and population growth. So population will level out at a certain point.

... Well we all know public order penalties for squalor caps out at 80% (BI) or maybe 100% (RTW? maybe initially).

The growth penalty I believe goes up to 25%, and then caps out. So if you managed to get, say, 25.5% of population growth "stuff", you would go up to the settlement's maximum population...

[DimeBagHo]

... Well we all know public order penalties for squalor caps out at 80% (BI) or maybe 100% (RTW? maybe initially).

The growth penalty I believe goes up to 25%, and then caps out. So if you managed to get, say, 25.5% of population growth "stuff", you would go up to the settlement's maximum population...

I didn't know that. I don't think it's possible to hit max population in XGM anyway because the farming levels are much lower than vanilla and bonuses tapper off at higher settlement levels. Of course you can get to higher populations temporarily through enslavement and governor bonuses.

[Hurlbut]

recruit cheap units (specifically large ones) and disband them in another region that need a pop boost or use them as fodders

[Graecus]

hello, everyone,
is there a way, if a settlement of mine is threatened, and has a garisson script, to garisson immediately army to defend it?
If yes how ?
If no, i think this is unfair, because you go to attack an almost empty city, and you come up to fight with more than 2500 soldiers, and when the opposite happens you are obliged to defend the city with the guards you have.. if there are many, yu are lucky, if no.. then say goodbey to yoyr settlement

[CaesarVincens]

The garrison scripts are specifically designed to work for only the AI. This is because the AI does not understand garrisoning in the same way that a human player does.