Fatimid Stacks

[Landtuber]

Playing as Templar's on VH/VH in SS 6.2, and I am just wondering if they ever stop producing 2+ full stacks a turn? Its getting kinda crazy wiping out that many guys every turn when I have no idea where they are coming from, or how they can afford them. I've pushed them back over the last 5 turns and taken Jerusuluem, but soon as I did 4 more stacks appeared outside my walls. At last count I have killed 12 stacks all ranging from full to 4-5 units from full. This is about 25 turns in now.

If that's just the difficulty that's fine, but I might look for a different mod simply due to the massive micro-managing I have to do in every battle to get heroic after heroic victory so that I keep enough troops alive to fight more stacks, lol.

Is it simply that the AI gets so many bonus's regarding income and the like that they can afford it?

Side note: 3 Gold Chevron mounted Sarges and Generals rape everything they charge into .... Everything...

[vimy]

your a smal city state fighting a superpower,
there rich, have tons of provinces and millions of people to spare

your europes dirty little secret, (no personal insult intended but) no one in the west wants to support you, they couldn't care less.

your only chance is in the fact that your men are heavily armoured.
they are counting on tireing you out.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

If that's just the difficulty that's fine, but I might look for a different mod simply due to the massive micro-managing I have to do in every battle to get heroic after heroic victory so that I keep enough troops alive to fight more stacks, lol.

If the amount of foot traffic coming your way is getting tiresome ,Why not just dial it down to hard level and see how that works out. Why abandon SS over spam stacks? If you think this is bad, then try BC {Broken Crescent}. If you turtle like I do by the time you've got your little 10 province "Mud Hut" going, every faction around you is sending bout 20 stacks your way....

[Landtuber]

I'm gonna keep working at it for a while still, just wondering if the whole game stays like that, or if it gets to a point where its actual well balanced stacks I start to face in reasonable numbers, not just massive hordes of little guys, lol.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Hmmm...Well I can tell that when playing as Byzantium, my worst nightmare is thinking of the two or three well built K-Shah stacks headed my way every time they call a Jihad. Oh yes...speaking of K-Shah, their initial wave of stacks should be hitting the Levant {your neighborhood} any where from turn 35-50.Just as soon as they eat the Turks {chips & dip}, engulfs Egypt {hot wings}, finally hitting the coast. {Big fat juicy cheddar Burger with mouthwatering greasy fries} Dat be you mate....Enjoy...

[Massive_attack]

Okay let me give you some real advice: want to stop the stack attacks ? Scrape together one stack in your homeland, grab a cog, and sail to gaza. Take the castle ASAP (siege weapons preferable) and once in there demolish all the buildings you can inside.Then, get back on the boat, and let the fatimids retake gaza. Rinse and repeat as many times as possible, get the coastal castles first (theres one in the nile delta, and another, also fairly close, if i can remember correctly). Once your out of castles to destroy, go for the cities, just make sure, no-matter what you do, that you keep that army intact during transport. Perhaps building more ships and making a super fleet would help.

Doing this diverts time and energy from the fatimid assaults on you and weakens there frontiers. If you push forward slowly whilst raiding, you might be able to gain a stronger foothold. Be audacious, be sinister, and always, always, either ransom or kill prisoners, and sack cities. Generally, i play the templars like i would play the vikings, hit and run style naval raids for cash and a slow inexorable ground push. Of course, all this looting and pillaging makes YOU filthy rich, just so long as you keep the ball rolling. If your going to be europes dirty little secret, be dirty ! You have a job: destroy islam; to that end, looting, pillaging, and exterminating civilians all work to your benefit !

If you wipe out all of the coastal cities, the fatimid caliphate is no longer a big looming superpower, its a poverty stricken empire which has to rely on miltias for the bulk of its armies, and is concentrating on rebuilding the damages you caused.

Just dont try to be a butcher and carve your way through the hordes thinking that they are thinning as you go. They usually arent, and at some point or another, your going to be overwhelmed !

[n0z]

Make an Alliance with them? ... Or call a crusade. Eventually late-game around turn 150, and after you're big enough, it gets pretty easy. Infact they do get smaller with the Mongols and Kwarz Empires attacking them.

[soulson]

hang in there man and dont give up. they will break eventually.

[Sokar Rostau]

No offence, but that's a HORRIBLE plan. Destroy Gaza? The most developed castle in the region? Are you serious? According to your plan the Egyptians never die, their settlements just get sent back to the stone-age... and then when you FINALLY decide to take those settlements they're of no use to you.

Egypt has no less than five (maybe six) castles within about 6 Turns south of Jerusalem, that's where they're coming from.

Pump out Priests from every settlement you can and invade Gaza with them. Build a stack in Acre, then use it to take Gaza. DO NOT EXTERMINATE OR SACK GAZA, doing so destroys buildings and costs you money and technology (unless you're happy taking a Fortress that can only train Peasants and Mounted Sergeants... ). While the religious unrest settles, retrain your assault stack and prepare at least another half one (you can sit them in a Cog if needs be). As soon as you have decent Catholic rating send your Priests to Kerak then, when unrest allows you to leave a partial stack in Gaza, send your assault stack to Kerak. Reinforce Gaza, or ensure that reinforcements (that are not your assault stack) are nearby. Gaza and Kerak are the two closest Egyptian castles to Jerusalem. As your Catholic percentage rises (don't forget to build the highest tier Chapel you can) you should be preparing your next assault - Damietta. Damietta is three Turns from Gaza so you might want to use a fleet, however you intend to invade, precede it with Priests. Once you take these three castles your only nearby threats from Egypt are Luxor, south of Cairo, and Medina, south of Kerak. Both are far enough away for you to be well prepared for any incoming stacks (I think they are about 5 Turns away?). Take Alexandria and Cairo as soon as you can afterwards because they are worth a lot of Florins per turn. Feel free to sack them if you can live with a slightly lower income for a while.

Next thing you need to do is capture Luxor and Medina. Benghazi will still be sending stacks towards the Nile Delta but they are a looong way away. Send Spies into the Cities south of Jerusalem to find out which ones have pro stacks and which have Militia. If a city has pro's in it you'll need to kill them, if not press on for Medina and take the Cities later (I'm sure you can defend against any Militia stack thrown at you).

[Vaz]

Gaza, Damietta, Alexandria, Luxor, Al Aqaba, and Cairo are what you want to be heading. If you have Jerusalem, and you're struggling to keep up with the defence of it, destroy all the buildings for some Cash, and remove all generals, unless they're really old, High Chivalry/Dread, or have great abilities, that you can actually back up with the troops. I.e no point having a 58 Year Old Maxed Stat General with 10 Hit Points and 20 Bodyguards (on small, they're normally 8), with great morale bonuses to freindly troops, and then support him with 3 Units of syrian militia, and some peasant archers.

True Story. Didn't go down to well, when I got besieged by 2 Kwarz stacks, a Moor Stack, and a Seljuk Stack which was pretty much made of Catapults.

Anyway, point is, leave some defence troops, and only generals if they're either old and expendable, or old and very good. Then, just keep defeating their armies, and then send the troops you captured Luxor and Cairo with over to Mecca. That will keep the Fatimids off Jerusalem for a while.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Gaza, Damietta, Alexandria, Luxor, Al Aqaba, and Cairo are what you want to be heading. If you have Jerusalem, and you're struggling to keep up with the defence of it, destroy all the buildings for some Cash, and remove all generals, unless they're really old, High Chivalry/Dread, or have great abilities, that you can actually back up with the troops. I.e no point having a 58 Year Old Maxed Stat General with 10 Hit Points and 20 Bodyguards (on small, they're normally 8), with great morale bonuses to freindly troops, and then support him with 3 Units of syrian militia, and some peasant archers.

True Story. Didn't go down to well, when I got besieged by 2 Kwarz stacks, a Moor Stack, and a Seljuk Stack which was pretty much made of Catapults.

Anyway, point is, leave some defence troops, and only generals if they're either old and expendable, or old and very good. Then, just keep defeating their armies, and then send the troops you captured Luxor and Cairo with over to Mecca. That will keep the Fatimids off Jerusalem for a while.

Sound advise ...except I don't understand the part about gutting Jerusalem? Why eviscerate one one the principal cities on the map?... Even if it were to be lost, it can be retaken. But if gutted, it will lose momentum and never be on par again, with the likes of Constantinople.

I think you lose more in the long run by gutting your own stuff.

[Vaz]

Sound advise ...except I don't understand the part about gutting Jerusalem? Why eviscerate one one the principal cities on the map?... Even if it were to be lost, it can be retaken. But if gutted, it will lose momentum and never be on par again, with the likes of Constantinople.

I think you lose more in the long run by gutting your own stuff.

Eh, I just see it as a lost cause, so, personally, it's each to their own. I'm never any good with Finances (until late game, my production is always one of the lowest), so every little bit of cash goes towards helping me.

I just think that I'm never going to be building new troops there - I'll always be shipping in from Tortosa, Gaza, or Kerak (I forgot about Kerak, whoops!), so I should be able to get a fair amount of troops in.

As for being a Cash Cow, well, that's why you go for Constantinople, and Venice =D Venice always ends up getting excommunicated.

If you can spare the money as well - gift a few choice settlements (in my current Antioch game SS6.1 with KoH1.02), I've got 5-6 settlements into the Seljuks, and when the Knights Templar were destroyed, I just took Jerusalem, Damascus Tortosa, and Gaza, and then granted them to the Pope with all my spare cash. Yes, I was bankrupt (once again), but the Pope is now a bit of a Super Power.

A jihad was called, but with me taking on the Seljuk's from the North, and with Sicily cutting Africa down the middle, holding off the Moors, it only has to deal with the Khwarz, and Fatimids, who only got Kerak (I was neutral at the time, and didn't fancy getting a raping), Al Aqaba, and Damietta to provide troops - the Khwarz are at war with the Cumans, Seljuk's AND the Fatimids, but the Seljuk's have me, Khwarz, Cuman's, Kiev, AND Byzantines all taking their land bit by bit, so really, there's only the Fatimids who are an issue, and with a pretty much full stack of Dismounted Knights Hospitaller defending Jerusalem, they're quite safe.

@ Sokar - so... if it's the stupidest piece of advice, how come that whenever I lose Jerusalem after sacking it, it becomes FAR easier for me to a) retake and b) have even less stacks to defend against when the time comes?

[Sokar Rostau]

You can't ignore Kerak either, it's simply too close to Jerusalem.

If you're playing Ireland then by all means, rape pillage and ransack your way through the Holy Land - it's too far away to make any real difference to your empire. Advising people to do the same when they're playing Templars/KoJ is plain stupidity. Telling someone to raze Jerusalem and/or Gaza in a Templar/KoJ campaign is possibly the worst piece of advice I have ever seen given out on this forum.

[JorisofHolland]

It all depends on how far south you are and how far north they are. If you have Jerusalem and Acre, launch naval attacks on Gaza and Damieta and try to keep them. That will considerably weaken their military might and give you some breathing time. Always call in crusades, free upkeep and cheap mercenaries are usefull to your economy and military. After securing Gaza and Damieta, take Kerak and then move further into Egypt, to improve your economy.
However, if you didn't take the rebels fast enough, and you are only down to Damascus, you are in a far worse situation. Try to take Gaza through naval assault with on stack and keep it as long as you can hold it (the longer the better) after some turns, use another stack to take Acre and then call a crusade (preferable on Cairo, but Damietta is also fine). Use the movement and mercenaries to take Jerusalem, re-take/reinforce Gaza, take Damietta and then Cairo. This should give you the strenght to finish them off and then take on the Seljuks or the Kwarezmians.
Some basic hints:
1) Convert any city you wish to take. You cannot afford keeping your stacks in cities to keep the populace under controll
2) Stay on the Popes good side. It is hard to loose favor as there are no catholics near, but still follow his missions. You will be able to call Crusades to your liking and be in a very good position when you march against your fellow christians.
3) You have armour, they don't. Exhaust them in sieges, they can't defeat your dismounted knights as long as they are supported.

[Sokar Rostau]

You said it yourself:

I'm never any good with Finances (until late game, my production is always one of the lowest), so every little bit of cash goes towards helping me.

The reason your finances suck is because you're destroying your economy from the very start thereby "forcing" you to do the same to the next settlement - it's a short term gain for a long term loss. And when I say long term, I mean 5 Turns later when you're bankrupt again and preparing to sack and sell off the next city.

When you sack a settlement - any settlement - some of the buildings get a downgrade, say from a Merchant's Quarter to a Great Market. When you Exterminate a settlement some buildings get a huge hit and that Merchant's Quarter might end up as a Grain Exchange. The buildings downgraded (or even destroyed entirely) are random. Every Merchant's Quarter (or whatever) you capture intact is a building you do not need to build, and in the case of a Merchant's Quarter that's 9600 Florins, and it's a building making you a profit. Sacking/Exterminating castles is just as bad and is the difference between re/training your best units from a newly acquired Citadel and only being able to train Peasants.

[Landtuber]

Good advice, I like the raiding tactic's to distract and take key cities. I never sack cities though, love my finances, so I wouldn't do that but I'll try sailing some good stacks down west and see what havoc I can wreak.

On the whole, I'm really liking how SS 6.2 is playing. I'll keep wearing em down,

[Ichon]

You said it yourself:

The reason your finances suck is because you're destroying your economy from the very start thereby "forcing" you to do the same to the next settlement - it's a short term gain for a long term loss. And when I say long term, I mean 5 Turns later when you're bankrupt again and preparing to sack and sell off the next city.

I have to disagree... there is no reason you have to get into a cycle of sacking but frequently sacking a large enemy city you can't hold at that point is well worth it. Some buildings are downgraded but you get a large amount of money and if you also selectively destroy some buildings the AI will rebuild for you over time. Probably not to as high of a level by the time you capture the city to hold it but when you need money currently it is not a bad trade.

I wouldn't recommend doing it for the next city you want to capture so as KoJ sacking Gaza might not be the best unless you are going north towards Seljuks but never sacking a city because some buildings have a chance of being downgraded is also poor advice. It always depends on the situation.

Especially as a faction which can make some coastal raids there is no reason not to especially if religion is different and it is going to take a lengthy campaign to be able to hold the area. Some Egyptian cities away from the front lines are less important later on than what you can do with the money you earn from sacking right away. Expanding in the game is usually exponential in nature- so for example 3,000 in the first 10 turns is worth much more than even 12,000 by turn 50.

[vimy]

basically, it all comes down to this

dont loose. they can spam stack after stack, but not a lot of quality in there stacks

expand on every oportunity. there are a lot of great forts and cities nearby. grab them whenever you can and grow. they cant spam troops from your fortress.

take the fight to them. if they send two stacks a turn at you, its almost just as easy to fight them in there province, rather than yours.

finally, give them something else to think about. a crusade deep in there territory, or even raiding there coast, anything that forces them to send somestacks in a different direction.

The arabs are beatable, the ai in general isnt that great, it just trys to spam you into submission. you want to avoid turtling, or hideing behind walls, you need to be aggressive. before you know it, they are banhrupt and your the superpower.

not so hard.

[Vaz]

So why should the fact that removing every piece of gold I can from a settlement I'm not even going to be able to hold make any difference what so ever? Leave the cost of rebuilding to the Fatimids. If they don't, oh well, by the time I have Jerusalem, I'll have the money to be able to steam roll past it, and eventually rebuild it.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

So why should the fact that removing every piece of gold I can from a settlement I'm not even going to be able to hold make any difference what so ever? Leave the cost of rebuilding to the Fatimids. If they don't, oh well, by the time I have Jerusalem, I'll have the money to be able to steam roll past it, and eventually rebuild it.

Excellent point. Please forgive my earlier zealotry. Being one that plays the campaign map I tend to forget how hard things are on you guys that play on the higher levels.
Mia culpa +Rep...