Islam in Europe

[GaMMwl]

Hello all
Im from Roskilde, Denmark.
Recently plans have been publicized that the mosque in Roskilde will be expanded and made into a "grand-mosque".
I am an anarkist and believe in total freedom and equality, but I see islam as being a religion that limits your personal freedom and off course I entered the discussion without hesitating!
Early on I made it clear that I feared what could follow if Islam were allowed to expand in Denmark.
Islam and the danish/norse culture cant really enter an symbiose, collision is inavoidable imo. And I fear for this collision! That was all I would like to say to the people who support the mosque.
My point was that religion(all religions) should be allowed in the country but not allowed to grow into a dominating role in the society in any way.
The danish christian church is quite passive, wich I find perfect in this modern society.
I have to add that Im a protestant christian and a believer in the norse gods. You can call me a blasphemic, but I do what I want...

The answer, however, that I recieved from the supporters(mainly arabian immigrants) were very aggressive and I was attacked and called a racist, I was accused of being discriminant og depressive.

What are your thoughts on this issue?
In Switzerland minaretes is made forbidden and this have arised a huge debate as well. We are in the midst of a cultural battle it seems, whether we like it or not :/

[bomberboy]

Well maybe you can stop being fearful and see it from their side. And then learn about Islam a bit more too maybe thats why they thought you were racist because you think it limits peoples rights which they disagree with and you don't have a good knowledge from the look of it. And do you even know if any of these were immigrants? (Just wondering)

[Copperknickers II]

Noone is trying to convert anyone. If muslims live in your country, as you say, they should be free to do what they want, and if that means going to Mosque then you need a Mosque, don't you?

[Poach]

The issue all lies around the traditional civil liberties we in the West are used to vs the strict moral code Islam still adheres to. There will ofcourse be friction, Westerners see Islam as oppressive and an infringement on rights, whilst Muslims see the West as immoral, lacking in any kind of moral backbone, if you will. Not everyone, mind you...

The problem is, as you correctly identified, one of intergration. Having these communities living side by side will present friction, whilst segregation begs the question of why they're even here in the first place. Personally, I'm for integration. I don't like there being Muslim-only schools in the UK, or closed off Muslim communities. In the long term, the early friction is necessary for future peace, the Muslims living in Europe aren't a bunch of Westerner-hating, Sharia-Law imposing backward savages, it's the cultural difference that causes the issues. Actively persue integration, let their children be raised alongside ours and in a generation or two things will be better.

Ofcourse, you get the Muslims who don't want to accept they're not living in an Islamic country and you get the Westerners who don't want to accept the Muslims keeping a distinct culture. These people make the process more difficult... Personal opinion again, I advocate deporting the Muslim minority who habitually cause trouble (any British remember the thing in the news ages ago about some Muslim children being quite rabidly anti-British in primary school, expressing delight at an English child dying because he was English?), whilst containing the BNP types. Eventually, both will wither away...

[Request a new user name]

The issue all lies around the traditional civil liberties we in the West are used to vs the strict moral code Islam still adheres to. There will ofcourse be friction, Westerners see Islam as oppressive and an infringement on rights, whilst Muslims see the West as immoral, lacking in any kind of moral backbone, if you will. Not everyone, mind you...

Till the Abbasids started introducing non canonical Hadiths to support their and anti-feminist policies, Islam was the only religion that;

1. Made Women the equal of men. In Roman, Judaism, and Christian Law women were the property of their fathers or husbands.

2. Allowed women to own property. Women did not have that right under Roman, Judaic, or Christian Law.

3. Allowed women to testify in court on their own behalf. Again in Christian, Roman, and Jewish law women could not.

I could go on, but it becomes clear that western rights for women come not from Roman, Judaic, or Christian Laws, but from Islamic Laws.

[Razor]

Till the Abbasids started introducing non canonical Hadiths to support their and anti-feminist policies, Islam was the only religion that;

1. Made Women the equal of men. In Roman, Judaism, and Christian Law women were the property of their fathers or husbands.

2. Allowed women to own property. Women did not have that right under Roman, Judaic, or Christian Law.

3. Allowed women to testify in court on their own behalf. Again in Christian, Roman, and Jewish law women could not.

I could go on, but it becomes clear that western rights for women come not from Roman, Judaic, or Christian Laws, but from Islamic Laws.

From Islamic laws? I seriously doubt that one though. Ever heard of Enlightenment and equal rights?

[antaeus]

From Islamic laws? I seriously doubt that one though. Ever heard of Enlightenment and equal rights?

equal rights for women in the west only came about in the second half of the 20th century... and many would argue, probably correctly, that western society hasn't actually lived up to those legally enshrined rights yet...

with our glass ceiling and all we probably shouldnt throw stones in glass houses - to get all metaphoric on it.

for the most part feminist movements have been active in the arab world parallel with those in the west... but there are some differences so direct comparisons aren't easy... there's western style feminism - which has been evident in places like turkey, syria, iraq, lebanon etc (socialist or democratic-style governments)... which seeks the same goals as western feminism - equality under the law and socially with no legal difference in status between men and women

but there's also a number of islamic varieties of feminism which are different from what we've seen in the west - these usually seek equality of women while maintaining separation of genders to some degree.. you see this evolving in places like iran where women are increasingly taking part in society on an equal footing to men, but strict separation of the sexes is adhered to. even in the strictest islamic societies women are allowed to own property, earn money, and in general be financially independent - which is something that western nations were very slow to pick up on.

interestingly... women have become national leaders in islamic nations at the head of both types of feminist movements... suggesting that islamic values are in no way a barrier to women holding positions of power and authority over men in the muslim world - and we haven't seen that many female leaders in the major western nations yet.

if you look into the koran itself, it does not ever advocate the subjection of women. this is simply an arab stereotype which has been abused by men for their own gain

[removeduser_487563287433]

From Islamic laws? I seriously doubt that one though. Ever heard of Enlightenment and equal rights?

Um, the west came in contact with Islam some one thousand years earlier than that. I bet you would even bore us with how western civilisation and rights come from the Greeks - who we only know about thanks to Islam.

[Gromovnik]

Um, the west came in contact with Islam some one thousand years earlier than that. I bet you would even bore us with how western civilisation and rights come from the Greeks - who we only know about thanks to Islam.

I guess the existence of a greek speaking Roman Empire up until 1453 had nothing to do with preserving greek texts... not to mention the myth that absolutely no one knew greek in rest of Europe for a thousand years.

[Razor]

equal rights for women in the west only came about in the second half of the 20th century... and many would argue, probably correctly, that western society hasn't actually lived up to those legally enshrined rights yet...

with our glass ceiling and all we probably shouldnt throw stones in glass houses - to get all metaphoric on it.

for the most part feminist movements have been active in the arab world parallel with those in the west... but there are some differences so direct comparisons aren't easy... there's western style feminism - which has been evident in places like turkey, syria, iraq, lebanon etc (socialist or democratic-style governments)... which seeks the same goals as western feminism - equality under the law and socially with no legal difference in status between men and women

but there's also a number of islamic varieties of feminism which are different from what we've seen in the west - these usually seek equality of women while maintaining separation of genders to some degree.. you see this evolving in places like iran where women are increasingly taking part in society on an equal footing to men, but strict separation of the sexes is adhered to. even in the strictest islamic societies women are allowed to own property, earn money, and in general be financially independent - which is something that western nations were very slow to pick up on.

interestingly... women have become national leaders in islamic nations at the head of both types of feminist movements... suggesting that islamic values are in no way a barrier to women holding positions of power and authority over men in the muslim world - and we haven't seen that many female leaders in the major western nations yet.

if you look into the koran itself, it does not ever advocate the subjection of women. this is simply an arab stereotype which has been abused by men for their own gain

That may be so, but the question remains: did the west specifically copy that from Islam? And I believe it didn't. There can be several paths that lead towards one goal. Atheism also isn't something specific for one religion for example.
Plus Enlightenment also abolished the feudal society and gave the people (male citizens) equal rights and equality before law. I can't say that has something to do with Islam. And that certainly doesn't make the copying of equal rights of man and women (which didn't happen until recently arguably) from Islam likely.

Um, the west came in contact with Islam some one thousand years earlier than that. I bet you would even bore us with how western civilisation and rights come from the Greeks - who we only know about thanks to Islam.

And...? Btw, a few sizeable private book collections were shipped in the 15th century from Byzantium to Venice and found its way to Europe. Don't pretend as if we specifically need to thank Islam for it, because if Byzantium had continued to exist it would have been preserved as well.

[Razor]

i wasn't suggesting that western feminism was influenced by islam, i said the two things have existed in parallel - sometimes influenced by each other, sometimes not. i was trying to illustrate that the whole 'women are always degraded second class citizens' stereotype about muslim countries is not true, and at the same time i also tried to suggest that feminism in the islamic world isn't always so backward and has reflected the same overall themes we see in the west.

the world isn't a vacuum - ideas pass both ways and we're naive to assume that muslims are backwards simply because they do things differently.

of course there are some islamic countries where women are second class citizens - i'm thinking saudi arabia here - but this is a distorted version of islam much in the same way that there's been plenty of distorted versions of christianity over the years which haven't treated women that well (i'm thinking mormons, amish etc for a start)

either way, we're way of topic in this thread now.

people shouldn't fear muslims.

Ok, then we're pretty much on the same line. I thought you were defending Request a new username's point, which was:

I could go on, but it becomes clear that western rights for women come not from Roman, Judaic, or Christian Laws, but from Islamic Laws.

/OFFTOPIC

[MathiasOfAthens]

Till the Abbasids started introducing non canonical Hadiths to support their and anti-feminist policies, Islam was the only religion that;

1. Made Women the equal of men. In Roman, Judaism, and Christian Law women were the property of their fathers or husbands.

2. Allowed women to own property. Women did not have that right under Roman, Judaic, or Christian Law.

3. Allowed women to testify in court on their own behalf. Again in Christian, Roman, and Jewish law women could not.

I could go on, but it becomes clear that western rights for women come not from Roman, Judaic, or Christian Laws, but from Islamic Laws.

Actually the Romans allowed woman, at least the freeborn, to own property, to pass property down to heirs, and to argue in court, and so much more.

[Dr. Croccer]

Muslims should just have the same rights that other religious groups have, IMO.

Most mosques are built by individuals, private developers or groups of people, who bought the land or building legally, and ergo, IMO, they should be allowed to build whatever they want, as long as it stays within the limits of the law.

Ideally, I would have immigration policy made stricter to the point where only a few thousand get into the country and active attempts to integrate Muslim communities.

I take the Islamphobic groups with a large bag of salt, not just because of their rather far-fetched claims and idiotic policies, but their hypocrisy and double standard. These are people who think that a few minarets will convert a country to Islam, and argue that a small minaret of 3 metres on a ski hut-turned-mosque is out of tune with western architecture, whilst turning a blind eye to the dozens of Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, etc temples which look like they been pulled straight out of Karachi/Delhi/Beijing/Tel Aviv.

[Katsumoto]

Another day, another Eurabia thread.

[bomberboy]

Sadly yes.

[GaMMwl]

The problem is, that EVERY other religious minority live peacefully in the society and build whatever they want. But muslims seems to be very aggressive by mind and all the religious trouble in Denmark is between atheists/christians and muslims.
When you debate on these issues all you get in return is personal attacks full of hatred and people dont read what you write at all!
I really wish to have an islamic minority in Denmark, but even though I express this openminded attitude, well, I am being attacked again and again...
And Im only talking about the group who do want to leave the country but still doesn't recognize danish virtues at all, but just keep demanding.
I am interested in arabian culture and islam, I've been to palestine and enjoyed it there. Only the girl I travelled with were victim to some abuse(people commenting on her close/hair not being covered).

[bomberboy]

The problem is, that EVERY other religious minority live peacefully in the society and build whatever they want. But muslims seems to be very aggressive by mind and all the religious trouble in Denmark is between atheists/christians and muslims.
When you debate on these issues all you get in return is personal attacks full of hatred and people dont read what you write at all!
I really wish to have an islamic minority in Denmark, but even though I express this openminded attitude, well, I am being attacked again and again...
And Im only talking about the group who do want to leave the country but still doesn't recognize danish virtues at all, but just keep demanding.
I am interested in arabian culture and islam, I've been to palestine and enjoyed it there. Only the girl I travelled with were victim to some abuse(people commenting on her close/hair not being covered).

Well maybe that girl could've respected their values a bit more and cover her hair, maybe they were commenting cos they found it was a little bit against what their values. But your not being that openminded really when you say "Muslims seems to be very aggressive" makes you look like you think they are all aggressive" and how do you know they are full of hatred, they don't know you and you don't know them if you just tell them to calm down and think things like normal humans maybe then you can just talk.

And to be honest how can EVERY other one be living in complete peace?

[Poach]

Well maybe that girl could've respected their values a bit more and cover her hair, maybe they were commenting cos they found it was a little bit against what their values.

Therein lies the issue. People in the West do not understand why we must obey their culture in their country yet they should be exempt from obeying our culture in our country. It is a ridiculous double standard that I detest, hence I advocate integration as the easiest way to solve the problem.

It's either that or follow their example of arresting the minorities who don't act like us. Western nations are better than that kind of activity I'd hope.

[bomberboy]

Therein lies the issue. People in the West do not understand why we must obey their culture in their country yet they should be exempt from obeying our culture in our country. It is a ridiculous double standard that I detest, hence I advocate integration as the easiest way to solve the problem.

It's either that or follow their example of arresting the minorities who don't act like us. Western nations are better than that kind of activity I'd hope.

Yeah didn't realise there was a double standard (epic fail ) there.

[Groenepuntmuts]

Yeah didn't realise there was a double standard (epic fail ) there.

That's not necessarily a double standard, one could argue that in both cases, we measure the situation by western standards.

And maybe we put so much faith in these standards because they reasonably allow more invidual freedom.

Just brainstorming aloud here, I'm neutral in the discussion, only wanted to share this with you.