That old burqa chestnut...

[Plan C]

Sorry, the posting is from Sky News website because I happened to come across it there first and I'm at work so I can't really skive:

LINK

My 2 cents before the storm ensues - there is perhaps one valid argument in the whole shameful debacle. Burqas as a religious symbol have been debunked. I understand why women feel threatened by the sheer sight of them; burqas indeed seem like a throwback to olden times when a man would shorten the chain if he found his wife in the garden . Quite seriously though - could it be argued that the burqas are a symbol of sexism and a backward, prejudiced look on social equality? Could it be argued that burqas DO offend westerners because they are a sign of defiance to the western way of life and therefore a sign of "ingratitude" of the immigrants? Sign of a stubborn disassociation with the hosts?

Again, I would like to stress that I do not mean or wish this thread to be a muslim-bashing one and I will ask for it to be closed if it is derailed or hijacked. We are not discussing religion here but the issue of assimilation and acceptance.

I implore you guys, please stay civil and discuss what was meant to be discussed as laid out above.

[Gromovnik]

I think French government has every right to decide who would they accept as citizens.

[CarbEast]

I think French government has every right to decide who would they accept as citizens.

True. It's also our right to point out when such decision is based on discriminatory principles that there's discrimination going on.

[bomberboy]

Just for a note it's up to the women to decide not the government, and to be honest it may be a symbol of all those aspects but do they ever think a woman might ACTUALLY want to wear them without the husband having a say?

I think French government has every right to decide who would they accept as citizens.

True but over an item of clothing?

[Gromovnik]

True but over an item of clothing?

It's their country, if I apply and they don't like my look, too bad for me...

[bomberboy]

It's their country, if I apply and they don't like my look, too bad for me...

I thought Citizenship was based on your merits not your appearence?

[Gromovnik]

I thought Citizenship was based on your merits not your appearence?

No, they allways have a right to reject you for reasons of "national interest" or something like that, I can't remember of an english term ATM.

[bomberboy]

"national interest"

Don't you mean adequate?

[Simon Cashmere]

Just for a note it's up to the women to decide not the government, and to be honest it may be a symbol of all those aspects but do they ever think a woman might ACTUALLY want to wear them without the husband having a say?


True but over an item of clothing?

And how exactly would a woman who decided to speak out publicly against the burka be treated by the rest of the Islamic community? It is not known as one for tolerance of dissent.

If powerful people within our Western societies are craven cowards when it comes to standing up to Islam - how is that a woman, a second class citizen under sharia, can be expected to stand up to all of her male relatives to say 'No I don't want to wear this?' when the violence perpetrated against women who stand up to Islam is there as an example for all to see. Every 'honor' killing of an Islamic woman for stepping out of line, for being too Western, for dating Western men, for wearing Western clothes, serves as an example of what happens to those who wish to be individuals. Shoot one, scared thousands more to comply.

It's a bit rich saying that women could voluntarily choose anything in Islamic society, when they are not free to do anything except exactly what their male masters tell them. Also leaving Islam is not an option - as the penalty for that is death.

[Dr. Croccer]

And how exactly would a woman who decided to speak out publicly against the burka be treated by the rest of the Islamic community? It is not known as one for tolerance of dissent.

Last I checked, burqas aren't really common in Islamic communities in Europe. It's estimated that there are barely 100 women who wear them over here in 2006, whilst there are over 800.000 Muslims here. Nor can the liberal attitude of many Muslims (mainly Turks) towards heascarves and such be inored either. It's silly to pretend that there is a universal, united Islamic opinion regarding this or that. In my country there are massive differences between Turks and Moroccans to start with, and more contrasts within those communities.

If powerful people within our Western societies are craven cowards when it comes to standing up to Islam

It seems more likely that they aren't anti-Islamic because they aren't little idiots and actually value European values,.

how is that a woman, a second class citizen under sharia, can be expected to stand up to all of her male relatives to say 'No I don't want to wear this?' when the violence perpetrated against women who stand up to Islam is there as an example for all to see. Every 'honor' killing of an Islamic woman for stepping out of line, for being too Western, for dating Western men, for wearing Western clothes, serves as an example of what happens to those who wish to be individuals. Shoot one, scared thousands more to comply.

It's a bit rich saying that women could voluntarily choose anything in Islamic society, when they are not free to do anything except exactly what their male masters tell them. Also leaving Islam is not an option - as the penalty for that is death.

This would make sense, if it weren't for the fact that the bulk of protestors against heascarf and burqa bans are women, and that more women started to wear headscarves as protest after the French ban of them in public spaces.

http://gulfnews.com/news/world/other...a-ban-1.440622
http://static.rnw.nl/migratie/www.we...rka-redirected

You are missing the whole point. Islam doesn't want to assimilate into your culture, it wants to destroy it and remake its own.

Yes Simon, we know. We're all misguided sheep, you are the only one who knows the truth.

[bomberboy]

And how exactly would a woman who decided to speak out publicly against the burka be treated by the rest of the Islamic community? It is not known as one for tolerance of dissent.

If powerful people within our Western societies are craven cowards when it comes to standing up to Islam - how is that a woman, a second class citizen under sharia, can be expected to stand up to all of her male relatives to say 'No I don't want to wear this?' when the violence perpetrated against women who stand up to Islam is there as an example for all to see. Every 'honor' killing of an Islamic woman for stepping out of line, for being too Western, for dating Western men, for wearing Western clothes, serves as an example of what happens to those who wish to be individuals. Shoot one, scared thousands more to comply.

It's a bit rich saying that women could voluntarily choose anything in Islamic society, when they are not free to do anything except exactly what their male masters tell them. Also leaving Islam is not an option - as the penalty for that is death.

Hello they are free in WESTERN COUNTRIES and your just giving me an over-generalised view and thinking I'm pro-islam when really I'm neither anti or pro, and yes they are second-class but last time I checked the West also treated their women as second class citizens, and there still is Sexism in some places, And not all "honour killings" have been stepping out of line cos they wear Western clothes".

And the Roman-Catholic Church also was very strict with dissent any "heretical" thoughts could be punished with death just look at the Spanish Inquistion. Not just Islam has been very strict with dissent.

[Gromovnik]

And the Roman-Catholic Church also was very strict with dissent any "heretical" thoughts could be punished with death just look at the Spanish Inquistion. Not just Islam has been very strict with dissent.

And we all know that spanish inquisition happened yesterday...

[bomberboy]

And we all know that spanish inquisition happened yesterday...

Its an example.

[Erik]

I understand why women feel threatened by the sheer sight of them; burqas indeed seem like a throwback to olden times when a man would shorten the chain if he found his wife in the garden .

I get the impression it's men, not women, who most strongly oppose Burqa's.

Sexism has very little to do with this debate, it's really about Christians vs. Muslims.

[bomberboy]

Sexism has very little to do with this debate, it's really about Christians vs. Muslims.

Which is basically my religions better than yours scenario. Yeah I do see feminists complaining but I do see a high proportion of men always complaining and they are all politicans.

Edit: Yeah I guess you have a point Pannonius

[Dr. Croccer]

Banning people from citizenship because of their choice of clothing is retarded.

[bomberboy]

Banning people from citizenship because of their choice of clothing is retarded.

I agree should really be based on what they can give to society.

[Stavroforos]

I see no problem with not granting citizenship to people who do not wish to abide by your country's standard for human rights.

[bomberboy]

I see no problem with not granting citizenship to people who do not wish to abide by your country's standard for human rights.

But in the article we don't know if the people who's wives are wearing this clothing have breached their rights do we?

[Stavroforos]

But in the article we don't know if the people who's wives are wearing this clothing have breached their rights do we?

A burqa is oppressive to women, so a husband who allows his wife to wear one is oppressing her.