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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091210/...eu_obama_nobel

    OSLO – Newly enshrined among the world's great peacemakers, President Barack Obama offered a striking defense of war. Eleven months into his presidency, a fresh Obama doctrine. Evil must be vigorously opposed, he declared as he accepted the Nobel Peace Prize on Thursday. At the same time, he made an impassioned case for building a "just and lasting peace."

    "I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people," Obama told his audience in Oslo's soaring City Hall. "For make no mistake: Evil does exist in the world."

    Pronouncing himself humbled by such an honor so early in "my labors on the world stage," Obama nevertheless turned his Nobel moment into an unapologetic defense of armed intervention in times of self defense or moral necessity. The hawkish message was an inevitable nod to the controversy defining his selection: an American president, lauded for peace just as he escalates the long, costly war in Afghanistan.

    It was a jarring moment when Obama, in the midst of the ceremony, said of his troops in Afghanistan: "Some will kill. Some will be killed."

    He lauded Mohandas Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr., preachers of nonviolent action. But he added, "A nonviolent movement could not have halted Hitler's armies. Negotiations cannot convince al-Qaida's leaders to lay down their arms."

    "To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism, it is a recognition of history."

    The president laid out circumstances in which war is justified — in self-defense, to come to the aid of an invaded nation, on humanitarian grounds such as when civilians are slaughtered by their own government.

    At the same time, he also stressed a need to fight war according to "rules of conduct" that reject torture, the murder of innocents and other atrocities.

    "We lose ourselves when we compromise the very ideals that we fight to defend," he said. "And we honor those ideals by upholding them not when it's easy, but when it is hard."

    He emphasized a need to exhaust alternatives to violence, including worldwide sanctions with teeth to confront nations such as Iran or North Korea that defy international demands. He pushed himself away from George W. Bush in defending diplomatic outreach that engages even enemies. He defined peace as civil rights, free speech and economic opportunity, not just the absence of conflict.

    "Let us reach for the world that ought to be," Obama said. "We can understand that there will be war, and still strive for peace."

    Back in the U.S., presidential historians and foreign policy specialists saw the speech as underscoring Obama's revamping of America's stance — away from confrontation and toward cooperation and negotiation when possible, and military action when unavoidable.

    Zbigniew Brzezinski, who was President Jimmy Carter's national security adviser, said Obama had presented "a very broadly stated case that we cannot in all circumstances avoid war." But he said he would have liked to have heard "some greater clarification of how he will pursue the broad objectives he has articulated."

    Obama showed "a sense of daring" in talking about war as he was honored as a man of peace, said John Baick, professor of history at Western New England College in Springfield, Mass. "He bared his soul, said we were going to have to kill, have to send soldiers to die, we hope we're doing the right thing," Baick said.

    The centerpiece of Obama's swift trip to Europe, the speech doubled the length of his inaugural address. Appearing tired here, Obama had worked all the way through the night on the flight to Norway, an aide said.

    Such is the weight of he prize. Suddenly and forever, Obama is in the company of King, Nelson Mandela, Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama.

    He drew laughter from his hosts when he acknowledged "the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated."

    "My accomplishments are slight," Obama said, by comparison to such "giants of history." In addition to other Nobel winners, he said the unrecognized masses who fight for peace are "far more deserving."

    Obama's wife, first lady Michelle Obama, listened to her husband's words and showed tears by the end. The president was accompanied by a small crew of family, friends and advisers.

    Politically, the White House was careful not to play up Obama's big award, what with so many families hurting economically at home and more troops heading off to war. Quite a few Norwegians were said to be miffed that he stayed but a day, not the usual three, and skipped a number of traditional events.

    Still there was ceremony aplenty.

    Before an evening banquet with Norwegian royalty, the Obamas stepped onto their hotel balcony to wave to a crowd of thousands who had gathered for a torchlight procession. In the square below, there were chants of "Yes, we can" and "O-ba-ma" as scores of torches were held aloft. Nearby, up to 2,000 demonstrators protested, many carrying banners demanding the U.S. get out of Afghanistan.

    Obama capped his evening with a sentimental toast at a candlelit dinner with Norwegian dignitaries, paying tribute to the influence of his late mother and the "largeness of her heart." And he spoke hopefully of the "extraordinary power" of the Nobel Prize to lift up those who might otherwise be forgotten.

    Earlier, on a damp and chilly day, the reaction on the streets of Oslo seemed curious but not overly excited. Crowds were not nearly of the size Obama has seen elsewhere. And there were protests.

    When Obama pulled up to the prime minister's office, black-hooded anti-war demonstrators banged drums and chanted slogans such as: "The Afghan people are paying the price."

    The president will return to Europe next week to speak at the international conference on climate change, and activists pushing for a serious global climate deal challenged Obama to earn his award.

    He won it, in the eyes of the Nobel committee, for changing the U.S. approach toward the world. The panel cited his efforts on nuclear disarmament, climate change and diplomacy.

    "President Obama is a political leader who understands that even the mightiest are vulnerable when they stand alone," the committee chairman, Thorbjorn Jagland, said Thursday.

    In every stop of Obama's Oslo tour, war shadowed peace.

    The president who is sending 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan made clear in a brief news conference that when troops begin coming home in July 2011, the pace will not be fast.

    It was the latest, sober warning that the United States will be at war for years.

    As for the other criticism of Obama's award — it was just plain premature for a leader not quite 11 months on the job — the president said to track his results. He said he wants to advance America's international interests and fix its economy, not win an award.

    "If I'm successful in those tasks, then hopefully some of the criticism will subside," he said. "But that's not really my concern."

    The Nobel comes with a $1.4 million prize. The White House says Obama will give that to charities but has not yet decided which ones.
    Thoughts on this President? Is he a pragmatist? I cynical leader? An idealist?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    A lot of libs and/or anti-war peeps don't seem to like this speech. It seems that once they get the notion he is "defending war" they cry bloody murder. If they actually took the time to listen to what he says he is not defending, supporting, or advocating in anyway. He is stating the reality that there are people who want to kill us and others. When that happens we have to defend ourselves. IMO, it was the most realistic and truthful speech I've heard in recent memory. He said a lot things a lot of people don't like to hear because it attacks their idealism. War is an unfortunate reality that is not going anywhere anytime soon. I'm paraphrasing very little here so not going to cover it all.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Got alot of time for Obama. Still too early to tell how is Presidency will go. That said, I think he should have refused the Nobel Prize. He now has the expectation that a NPP comes with when trying to solve Mid-East peace process, Afghan War etc. When no breakthroughs are made, all his opponents will use the Peace Prize against him: "Come on Mr President, you're a Nobel laureate, why can't you achieve peace?"
    Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say "brglgrglgrrr"!

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Well, for a President elected with a slogan like "Yes, we can", such a sudden burst of realpolitik seems nice. But the real issue here, is the divergence between reality and expectations, preaching and practicing, saying one thing today and another tomorrow, and so on.

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    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    He's right.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    ...Thoughts on this President? Is he a pragmatist? I cynical leader? An idealist?
    I believe him to be someone who has very little practical political experience and who is in over his head in regards to Foreign or National Policies of any sort.

    When Obama is treating speeches like he would when on the Campaign Trail (before an election) he does a good job. But, when he's actually trying to make a speech that communicates specific intentions and an understandable message, he's terrible.

    He should have never accepted the nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize in the first place. While it is not awarded in the same way as other Nobels, it still should not have been given to him based on some future expectations of his performance. To do so was a serious mistake. Yet, the Nobel Peace Prize has lately become a politically motivated award and not one simply awarded on merit alone.

    As far as being a pragmatist, cynic or an idealist, Obama is none of those. Quite frankly, I think he has yet to define himself as anything specific. He, apparently, is continuing to use the same tactics one would use while campaigning for election - promising everything and delivering nothing. IMO, that is to be expected as that's how he seems to be running his Presidency.

    I suppose you could define him as a pragmatist but, only in that he is forced to chose the most environmentally favored path in any decision because of his own shortcomings. In my opinion, he is not yet strong enough to forge ahead with his own ideas, if he really has any, on very many issues. He has neither the political support nor, in many cases, the public support to create the "Change" he so proudly proclaimed during his political campaign.

    My prediction - He'll go down as one of the most ineffective US Presidents in recent history.

    *
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwock View Post
    A lot of libs and/or anti-war peeps don't seem to like this speech. It seems that once they get the notion he is "defending war" they cry bloody murder. If they actually took the time to listen to what he says he is not defending, supporting, or advocating in anyway. He is stating the reality that there are people who want to kill us and others. When that happens we have to defend ourselves. IMO, it was the most realistic and truthful speech I've heard in recent memory. He said a lot things a lot of people don't like to hear because it attacks their idealism. War is an unfortunate reality that is not going anywhere anytime soon. I'm paraphrasing very little here so not going to cover it all.
    Unfortunately, much of what he said regarding conflict was already said by the previous Bush administration. Yet, he railed against Bush's policies, vowed to return all troops abroad back to the United States and jumped on the ant-war bandwagon as long as it afforded him a few more votes.

    But, many of his supporters are ignoring the fact that he seems to be channeling G.W. Bush right now.... /sigh

    It seems when something has to be done, it just has to be done... no matter how much you beat it to death as a talking point in your campaign speeches... The "Change" and "Transparency" he touted so blatantly during his campaign are simply turning into "More of the same, move along now, nothing to see here, these are not the droids you are looking for..." and people are eating it up like candy because they still want to "believe."
    Last edited by Morkonan; December 11, 2009 at 03:50 AM. Reason: *added
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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Morkonan View Post
    My prediction - He'll go down as one of the most ineffective US Presidents in recent history.
    My opinion: I completely disagree with you.
    He will be hard pressed to surpass Bush.

    Just check Juggernaunt's list. Which is quite impressive I should say.
    Last edited by alhoon; December 13, 2009 at 01:29 AM.
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    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    The speech itself was sensible and well thought out. For all the slating Obama gets by Americans for being a bad President, one thing he isn't is a bad speaker. I'll keep my opinions on Obama neutral, I'm not American and don't keep tabs on the ins and outs of day to day American politics.

    What I do know from this site is, however, that he's not the most popular chap and doesn't seem to get much done!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    ...What I do know from this site is, however, that he's not the most popular chap and doesn't seem to get much done!
    For the record, I am an American and I am not in favor of Obama's conduct or policies so far. I did not vote for him.

    However, that being said, I must also caution you against paying too much attention to the "Vocal Minority." While I do believe that many are not satisfied with his performance, there are also a great many who still are. Personally, I think that's just an intellectual bell-curve effect. But, in order to be honest, I'd say view any opinion on the matter with a critical mind while being aware that some people who yell loudest don't always represent the most unbiased of opinions.
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  10. #10
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    I didn't realize this site was a source of such accurate information.

  11. #11
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Well, American public opinion on their President must count for something, right?

    Or are the majority of the US posters on this site Republicans?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    He would have looked far more stupid if he went up there for his speech, and completely ignored the two (or one and a half, I wont debate this here) wars his country is currently involved in.

    He had to address it somehow, and I feel he did reasonably well. It's the people that gave him the prize that are idiots. I think he's made the best of an awkward situation.

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    Monarchist's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Obama is a really boring speaker. I've never understood the obsession with his 'eloquence'; as if he didnt say 'uh' every ten seconds. Even with a teleprompter or written words, I find his speeches tedious. Surprisingly, I am not actually a racist.

    The only words I've ever agreed with Obama on came out of his mouth yesterday in Denmark. The problem is that I don't think he really believes in America as a force for good. He doesn't really think any wars are just, and he's just in it to not seem like a complete hypocrite. You may notice that I have a small bias against him. I must say, though, that anyone who calls it "too early" to approach Obama's presidency had better have been silent about Bush in December, 2001. Was it "too early" to criticize Bush around Christmas, 2001, or is this just Obama favouritism on your parts?
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    Obama is a really boring speaker. I've never understood the obsession with his 'eloquence'; as if he didnt say 'uh' every ten seconds. Even with a teleprompter or written words, I find his speeches tedious. Surprisingly, I am not actually a racist.

    The only words I've ever agreed with Obama on came out of his mouth yesterday in Denmark. The problem is that I don't think he really believes in America as a force for good. He doesn't really think any wars are just, and he's just in it to not seem like a complete hypocrite. You may notice that I have a small bias against him. I must say, though, that anyone who calls it "too early" to approach Obama's presidency had better have been silent about Bush in December, 2001. Was it "too early" to criticize Bush around Christmas, 2001, or is this just Obama favouritism on your parts?
    Yeah, it is obvious you don't like Obama. I on the other hand believe it is right choice to continue the war. Sometimes you must do a minor evil to do a greater good.
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    Obama is a really boring speaker. I've never understood the obsession with his 'eloquence'; as if he didnt say 'uh' every ten seconds. Even with a teleprompter or written words, I find his speeches tedious. Surprisingly, I am not actually a racist.

    The only words I've ever agreed with Obama on came out of his mouth yesterday in Denmark. The problem is that I don't think he really believes in America as a force for good. He doesn't really think any wars are just, and he's just in it to not seem like a complete hypocrite. You may notice that I have a small bias against him. I must say, though, that anyone who calls it "too early" to approach Obama's presidency had better have been silent about Bush in December, 2001. Was it "too early" to criticize Bush around Christmas, 2001, or is this just Obama favouritism on your parts?
    Nobody questioned Bush in 2001, sir. Everyone was behind him.
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  16. #16
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    What's this bull about Obama "uhh-ing"? Most of the speeches I've he has an excellent speaker. I'd be glad if someone could point me to a speech where he's "uhh-ing".
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    40% to 55% think he was extremly rude the way he conducted himself, and 54% belives he did not deserve the sum of over 100 million NOK for his visit.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    The warmongering pacifist. The Christian Muslim. The Black President. The Lay Messiah. How could he be wrong...

  19. #19
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    The warmongering pacifist.
    That's the point:
    He's not a warmonger.
    And he's not a pacifist either.

    He's someone who assesses the situation and comes up with a balanced plan he thinks will give the biggest chance of peace on the long term.
    You could argue if a little less or perhaps a little more military force is needed, but it is clear that his middle-of-the-road solution is way better than either of the extremes mentioned above.



  20. #20

    Default Re: Nobel-winning Obama defends war in call for peace

    Oh yes cause the smartest thing to do when Iran is building nuclear missiles and killing their protesters on the street is to say im gonna put you on watch. Obama could in fact be the dumbest leader of a country since King Guy of Lusitania was leader of Jerusalem.

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