Seleucids and pikemen

[Aeohjie]

I read a strategy for the Seleucids and searched for this, but it wasn't really helping. Anyway, I started up a seleucid campaign today. I've never actually won a campaign as them. The campaign starts, and I see a very weak economy with almost no infrastructure. I set to work upgrading my cities with a focus on military production in Antioch and Seleucia. To secure my Southern Border, I sign an alliance with the Egyptians. First five turns are okay, but then on the sixth, Parthia signs a trade agreement with me -then attacks my city. I get a message saying that Egypt has broken our alliance, and signed an alliance with Parthia. They also siege one of my cities. Then Pontus and Armenia follow. At least the Greeks are too busy, but by turn 15, they're also knocking on my door. And every turn until I ended the game, at least one of my cities was put under siege. Every turn. I played for 20 turns, and racked up 80 battles.

I've used hoplites. They're beastly in this game, they made the Greek Cities campaign my easiest, but pikemen to me are just horrible. If this is what the Seleucid army relied on, it's no wonder the empire collapsed. Sure, it may have a better reach than hoplites, but having something pitiful like 8 armor(10 with an armory and temple) when 3 out of 5 of your neighbors have armies built around horse archers, that's not going to cut it. Also unlike hoplites, pikemen are almost useless if they're not standing still. I'm not lying when I say my unit of phalanx pikemen were routed by archers -in melee- when I ordered them to advance.

This incident of my pikemen fleeing from dreaded archers in hand-to-hand combat made me quit the campaign. I decided to load up a custom battle to see how effective these things were in melee from their strongest position: stationary, pikes forward, with a fight from the front. I made two units, one of Eastern Spearmen, and one of Pikemen. The pikemen lost. miserably. I decided to try another fight, but this time with a fully decked out silver shield legionairre against armored hoplites. This time, I thought I was going to win, but the AI was just screwing with me. It sat there, bugged, for a full two minutes as I chopped away at their flank before finally it, with 15 men left, turned to face my legionairres, raised their shields, and routed them.

[Solid Snake]

I read a strategy for the Seleucids and searched for this, but it wasn't really helping. Anyway, I started up a seleucid campaign today. I've never actually won a campaign as them. The campaign starts, and I see a very weak economy with almost no infrastructure. I set to work upgrading my cities with a focus on military production in Antioch and Seleucia. To secure my Southern Border, I sign an alliance with the Egyptians. First five turns are okay, but then on the sixth, Parthia signs a trade agreement with me -then attacks my city. I get a message saying that Egypt has broken our alliance, and signed an alliance with Parthia. They also siege one of my cities. Then Pontus and Armenia follow. At least the Greeks are too busy, but by turn 15, they're also knocking on my door. And every turn until I ended the game, at least one of my cities was put under siege. Every turn. I played for 20 turns, and racked up 80 battles.

I've used hoplites. They're beastly in this game, they made the campaign my easiest, but pikemen to me are just horrible. If this is what the Seleucid army relied on, it's no wonder the empire collapsed. Sure, it may have a better reach than hoplites, but when 3 out of 5 of your neighbors have armies built around horse archers, that's not going to cut it. Also unlike hoplites, pikemen are almost useless if they're not standing still. I'm not lying when I say my unit of phalanx pikemen were routed by archers -in melee- when I ordered them to advance.

This incident of my pikemen fleeing from dreaded archers in hand-to-hand combat made me quit the campaign. I decided to load up a custom battle to see how effective these things were in melee from their strongest position: stationary, pikes forward, with a fight from the front. I made two units, one of Eastern Spearmen, and one of Pikemen. The pikemen lost. miserably. I decided to try another fight, but this time with a fully decked out silver shield legionairre against armored hoplites. This time, I thought I was going to win, but the AI was just screwing with me. It sat there, bugged, for a full two minutes as I chopped away at their flank before finally it, with 15 men left, turned to face my legionairres, raised their shields, and routed them.

Well, you solved the mystery of why the Seleucids are pwned in the campaign....... their armies suck big time in the early to mid parts of the game. And for the record I ocne routed one Armored Hoplites with a charge of my mighty Cretan Archers from the back.... havent tried it with Seleucia on campaign tough, they are always dead beofre I arrive to their shores.

[{GrailKnight}]

Did you set the difficulty at highest or something? That would explain why your Pikemen rout from Eastern Spearmen, since their stats would go up in the higher difficulty.

[13lackGu4rd]

yeah you seem to be forgetting that on hard battles the AI gets +4/+4 to stats, and maybe a moral boost too. at very hard battles these bonuses become +7/+7. if you really wish to test something against the AI stick to medium battles, thus negating the stat bonuses. also there are other factors that may influence the battle outcome, such as terrain elevations, weather, trees, snow, etc. some units have combat bonuses in specific terrains, some like phalanx troops break formation when in trees, etc.

as for your Seleucid campaign, yes the early game is rather tough, especially if you're not a very experienced player, however once(if) you pass that stage you're golden for world domination. in my Seleucid campaigns I almost never used Levy Pikemen, only Militia Hoplites and straight to Phalanx Pikemen(lvl 3 barracks) the Levies have worst stats than the Militias but have 33% more men(120 as opposed to 80, more or less depends on your unit size definitions). when fighting against Parthia/Armenia(the Horse Archer factions) make sure to fight them in your cities, let them siege up and try to break(usually after 2-3 turns) than form a V formation with 2 Phalanx troops(Militia Hoplites most likely) at each entrance(gate and more if the AI brings more than 1 battering ram) and watch the AI lead his forces to their annihilation. really, Phalanx troops, of any kind and quality, are just imbalanced when defending against a siege, since the AI will always try to break it sooner or later... just be patient and completely annihilate the invading armies.

[Panthera leo]

Selucia, you need, basically, to rush headlong towards high-level troop production. Antioch especially, but also the Easternmost cities. Get your economy running as well - ports, especially - and seize as much of the territory in Asia Minor as humanly possible.




However, my best reccomendation is to play RTR. Selecuid Empire is almost double in size and is an extremely big player there. Still wind up fighting a war on about six fronts, but you've got the resources to systematically crush your foes.

[Hakomar]

Playing TSE is easy, because they own about 45 settlements in RTR, IIRC. They only need a few more to win the campaign. Play EB, it has different win conditions.

[Walternat0r]

I've currently got a SE campaign going and it's pretty tough! I managed to get an alliance with Egypt and kept them bribed for a little while so they only attacked after about 20 turns, by which point I had enough troops in Antioch to see them off. Parthia are a bit of a nightmare to fight, but I found with their horse archers, if you bumrush them with militia cavalry they route pretty quick so you can get rid of them nice and easy.

(Unfortunately, seems like my saves been corrupted 'cus I can't load it up anymore - just get a CTD, bah)

[War lord]

Pah seles are easy just send everything you have at Persia,eggy and pontus.

[mattgoby]

Pah seles are easy just send everything you have at Persia,eggy and pontus.


I dont understand this has gotta be one of the worst responses ive ever seen just because u start with nothing and have nothing for so longits just about defense.

[{GrailKnight}]

Pah seles are easy just send everything you have at Persia,eggy and pontus.


I dont understand this has gotta be one of the worst responses ive ever seen just because u start with nothing and have nothing for so longits just about defense.

Re-phrase your sentence and properly elaborate as to how his response is bad. What you said makes no sense.

[Kamperos of Lyssimachia]

I read a strategy for the Seleucids and searched for this, but it wasn't really helping. Anyway, I started up a seleucid campaign today. I've never actually won a campaign as them. The campaign starts, and I see a very weak economy with almost no infrastructure. I set to work upgrading my cities with a focus on military production in Antioch and Seleucia. To secure my Southern Border, I sign an alliance with the Egyptians. First five turns are okay, but then on the sixth, Parthia signs a trade agreement with me -then attacks my city. I get a message saying that Egypt has broken our alliance, and signed an alliance with Parthia. They also siege one of my cities. Then Pontus and Armenia follow. At least the Greeks are too busy, but by turn 15, they're also knocking on my door. And every turn until I ended the game, at least one of my cities was put under siege. Every turn. I played for 20 turns, and racked up 80 battles.

I've used hoplites. They're beastly in this game, they made the Greek Cities campaign my easiest, but pikemen to me are just horrible. If this is what the Seleucid army relied on, it's no wonder the empire collapsed. Sure, it may have a better reach than hoplites, but having something pitiful like 8 armor(10 with an armory and temple) when 3 out of 5 of your neighbors have armies built around horse archers, that's not going to cut it. Also unlike hoplites, pikemen are almost useless if they're not standing still. I'm not lying when I say my unit of phalanx pikemen were routed by archers -in melee- when I ordered them to advance.

This incident of my pikemen fleeing from dreaded archers in hand-to-hand combat made me quit the campaign. I decided to load up a custom battle to see how effective these things were in melee from their strongest position: stationary, pikes forward, with a fight from the front. I made two units, one of Eastern Spearmen, and one of Pikemen. The pikemen lost. miserably. I decided to try another fight, but this time with a fully decked out silver shield legionairre against armored hoplites. This time, I thought I was going to win, but the AI was just screwing with me. It sat there, bugged, for a full two minutes as I chopped away at their flank before finally it, with 15 men left, turned to face my legionairres, raised their shields, and routed them.

i took the seleucid and with good command and right use of pikes i conquered allmost the half map.The only thing that you have to think of is how to use the pikes!If you do that then you possess one deadly weapon.

trust me!!!

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

I read a strategy for the Seleucids and searched for this, but it wasn't really helping. Anyway, I started up a seleucid campaign today. I've never actually won a campaign as them. The campaign starts, and I see a very weak economy with almost no infrastructure. I set to work upgrading my cities with a focus on military production in Antioch and Seleucia. To secure my Southern Border, I sign an alliance with the Egyptians. First five turns are okay, but then on the sixth, Parthia signs a trade agreement with me -then attacks my city. I get a message saying that Egypt has broken our alliance, and signed an alliance with Parthia. They also siege one of my cities. Then Pontus and Armenia follow. At least the Greeks are too busy, but by turn 15, they're also knocking on my door. And every turn until I ended the game, at least one of my cities was put under siege. Every turn. I played for 20 turns, and racked up 80 battles.

I've used hoplites. They're beastly in this game, they made the Greek Cities campaign my easiest, but pikemen to me are just horrible. If this is what the Seleucid army relied on, it's no wonder the empire collapsed. Sure, it may have a better reach than hoplites, but having something pitiful like 8 armor(10 with an armory and temple) when 3 out of 5 of your neighbors have armies built around horse archers, that's not going to cut it. Also unlike hoplites, pikemen are almost useless if they're not standing still. I'm not lying when I say my unit of phalanx pikemen were routed by archers -in melee- when I ordered them to advance.

This incident of my pikemen fleeing from dreaded archers in hand-to-hand combat made me quit the campaign. I decided to load up a custom battle to see how effective these things were in melee from their strongest position: stationary, pikes forward, with a fight from the front. I made two units, one of Eastern Spearmen, and one of Pikemen. The pikemen lost. miserably. I decided to try another fight, but this time with a fully decked out silver shield legionairre against armored hoplites. This time, I thought I was going to win, but the AI was just screwing with me. It sat there, bugged, for a full two minutes as I chopped away at their flank before finally it, with 15 men left, turned to face my legionairres, raised their shields, and routed them.

Oh ye of little faith. Base pike + Javelin cav. = win. In open field tactics. In siege multiple entry openings.

1. what settings?
2. Egypt & Parthia hard coded to eat you. You need to throw everything at Egypt in the opening moves taking the cities to Jerusalem. This quick strike will allow you the breathing room + cash to asses your other fronts.
3. City growth in your military centers crucial. Plant those fields and order/happiness temples.

I my games the Starting king always retires to be a city builder in Alexandria. bum rushing Egypt sucks but the price you must pay for survival. Parthia's not good at sieging due to no mêlée infantry.

[Genius of the Restoration]

Base pike + Javelin cav. = win.

Pretty much this. You don't need terrific phalanx units to win, just use them well in conjunction with your cavalry and archers if you've got them. An early unit cannot beat Levy Pikes while getting javelins in the back, suffering a morale penalty for losing units, as well as a penalty for being vulnerable to a cav charge while fighting up a hill (which it should be doing). The best thing about RTW IMHO is that unit power is easily overridden by tactics and everything else that goes on in the battlefield.

[|Sith| Max]

Pah seles are easy just send everything you have at Persia,eggy and pontus.

I dont understand this has gotta be one of the worst responses ive ever seen just because u start with nothing and have nothing for so longits just about defense.

be quiet, he is right. see below:

2. You need to throw everything at Egypt

[leathaface]

I basically use the pikemen as a shield, standing their ground and taking on the frontline... while my cavalry surround the enemy and take turns flanking their army.

Pikemen do poorly compared to the greek spartans and other elite hoplites, but they are ok infantry in their own right, and can distract the enemy while the seleucid cataphract cavalry and elephants smash through enemy lines.

[Gorbaczow]

I have to agree with the fact that Seleucids are very weak at the start. But if they finally get their excellent pikemen, they are unstoppable. Also they have good cavalry.

[|Sith| Max]

To get back to the whole point of the topic ( i distinctly double post since the first one was too focused on cynicism to in any way continue onward on the path of sanity), Pikemen arent the best infantry out there. If they are not being hammered by hoplites or urbans there are always cataphracts to contend with. they're useful in large numbers but dont expect them to win on their own and you will be fine.

In the end it comes down to which player utilizes his assets best and who wants to win more. thats a fact. Effort also counts, but that depends on the player. i generally have moods where i cant be ed to go all out. i call this mood the "Games vs a standard rtw player mood" why bother with predicting their army and tactics if theyre going to fight like they always do.. sure that costs me some battles but I'm still not going to stress out for anyone that hasn't played longer than me.