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  1. #1
    Cornelius Plautus's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Roman Morality

    To me, the Romans are, or rather were, a fascinating civilization, whose influence ran throughout time, and can even be seen today. Here, I hope to ignite a thought-provoking conversation on the many facets of Roman morality. Much of what I am going to write about is explaining my viewpoints on Roman morality with information I've accumulated from classes and readings over time. Needless to say, another's evidence may contradict mine, and if anybody finds a contradictory point, please let me know.

    Some topics, I have clear opinions, which may be reflected in my writings. In other areas, I will try only to present information. For seasoned classical scholars, many of facts I present will be 'old news', so to speak, and for those of you who are as avid about classical history as I am, you may find it better to skip directly to the questions I provide in my conclusion.

    When one thinks of the ancient Romans and their practices, one's mind brings forth images of orgies, needless consumption of food, and bloodsport. One imagines the Senator to be corrupt, the soldier to be thick headed, and the pleb to be marginal, while imagining the slave to be an opressed super hero of sorts, held down by an atrocious Imperial system. While these wild misconceptions are based partially in truth, there is a completely different side to the Romans.

    I. On Decadence

    In the earliest days of the Roman Republic, tiny Roma was surrounded completely by much stronger regional and continental powers: the Etruscans to the north, Greeks to the East, Gallic tribes to the north, and Carthaginians to the south. In these days, the Romans had very little, and the aristocracy and peasantry, called patricii et plebiani, respectively, were tied closely to one another. Even those who were wealthy had little. All Romans led austere lives, far outside the realm of decadence.
    Several centuries later, the Roman Republic was in an entirely different state of affairs. The reformed Marian Legions brought incredible raw power to the Romans, who had already begun to conquer lands outside of Italy. Perhaps, even, with the semi-recent conquest of the Carthaginians, they thought themselves to be invincible. And, of course, with this comfortable position comes complacency. At that time, Romans began to develop the decadent practices we see in movies such as Gladiator. However, not all Romans fell into that trap of langourousness. The ideal of a Roman man and the ideal of a Roman woman perservered for centuries, and that ideal was of one who was strong, independent, patriotic, and, of course, austere. Conservative Romans chose not to indulge themselves, rather living sparingly, as their ancestors did. In fact, some of the greatest Romans from the Late Republic and the Principate (from Cicero and Caesar to Augustus and Virgil to Marcus Aurelius and Cassius Dio) were of the conservative type. In short, widespread Roman practice was 'sinful', while core Roman ideal was 'pure'.

    II. Homosexuality

    I've already made mention of the Etruscans, whom the Romans fought in their early days. Alongside the Greeks, the Etruscans were an enormous influence on the Romans. One of the largest cultural differences between Greeks and Etruscans was their view of women. While the Greeks, as we know, generally looked down on women, the Etruscans allowed women far more rights than most ancient cultures (such as land ownership and freedom of action). For this reason, the Etruscans found it far better to love women, and remain loyal to a single woman, than the Greeks who favored taking male partners, and multiple female partners.
    The Etruscans' closer proximity to the Romans than the Greeks meant that early Roman culture recieved more from Etruria than Greece, and so the early Romans generally tended to be heterosexual, and in many cases monogamous. In the later Republic, when Rome conquered classical Greece (the cities of Athens, Sparta, and Corinth, specifically), Greek ideals rubbed off on the Romans. Aside from architecture and literature, Greek ideals of male dominance (along with homosexuality and pedophilia) mergred with the ideals of the Romans.
    While in the early Republic homosexuality was tollerated (but not encouraged, since men needed to create more Roman babies), pedophilia was abhored as a degenerate Greek practice, to be shunned and discouraged. Therefore, conservative Romans, (see the examples from section I) were generally adverse to both homosexuality and pedophilia (Augustus, specifically battle those two practices, as he was adamant about restoring the sanctity of marriage -ironically, that seems to be what the modern conservative argument agiants homosexuality is-). Once again we see Roman conservativism coinsiding with the ideals of modern morality.

    III. Bloodlust and the Games.

    The Arena Games of ancient Rome have often been described as cruel and terrible, and described as savage by any means. While I can offer no argument against that, I ask only that modern society be juxtaposed to that of the Romans. Today, grotesqurie and violence are ubiquitous in the media, specifically the American media. First, there is no need to speak of the atrocities commited on the Internet. While modern media outlets like video games substitute real violence with pretended violence, when a child who has played those games for too long is exposed to real violence, or that of a serious film (such as Saving Private Ryan), they often respond to gore and violence with mirthful laughter.

    IV. Slavery

    Slavery is thought of as an unconditionally awful practice, but still more awful is that Roman slavery was far more kind than later European slavery. The Romans enslaved people not based on ethinicty, but rather because they needed a work force. In Rome, a slave who saved his money wisely could free himself, and even free his friends, so long as he had the money. House slaves under considerate masters could have a great deal of freedom, as we have seen in some of Pliny the Elder's letters, in which he allowed his slaves to celebrate holidays in his villa, while he retired to his villa to work.
    Of course, it is important to realize that the treatment of slaves depended on the disposition of their master. For example, a cruel and depraved slave driver would treat his slaves in a cruel and depraved manner, while a kindly old poet would probably give his slaves a lot of freedom. While the practice was by no means fair, a slave always had hope for a better life, even hope for freedom.

    V. Conclusion

    In conclusion Rome was a multifaceted civilization. Hopefully, my arguments have made that clear. It is unfair to call the Romans an evil race, inaccurate to call them moral. In essentiality, it all depended upon who you were in Rome, as it does in modern republics. If it pleases you, and you have time please tell me in your replies: what was your opinion of Rome before reading this post? Has it changed at all?

    Thank you for reading.

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  2. #2
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Hmm let's see: you entire post is aimed at defending Rome. But first of all I never heard somebody call it "evil race". Except if you are in America, they have an issue with all the past.

    Your conclusions are comparatively true, though you could have made more points.

    All ancient societies had problems as the listed, it's nothing special about Rome, actually in many things they were milder and more moderate. One would almost think that's why god gave them the empire.

    As a matter of fact, the early roman society was extremely strict and morally stable, with famous examples of elevated spirituality. There are few historical societies able to match this.

    But it was empire like any other, maybe they just had luck, who knows. The internal decaying of the empire caused its later fall, that's for sure.

    Roman society is not to be idealised nor demonized. It was normall for its time.
    Last edited by Dracula; December 09, 2009 at 03:00 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Aulus Cornelius Lepidus View Post
    IV. Slavery

    Slavery is thought of as an unconditionally awful practice, but still more awful is that Roman slavery was far more kind than later European slavery.
    Really not true. Slavery in the Roman Empire was exceptionally brutal. Slaves involved in heavy industry or employed as rowers lived particularly brutal and typically very short lives. But even on a farm a slave would be set free to starve when he became too old to work. This would only change as slaves became less available and slave owners began to care for and breed them.

    The Romans enslaved people not based on ethinicty, but rather because they needed a work force. In Rome, a slave who saved his money wisely could free himself,
    True, but what money? Buying your own freedom still was only permitted after a slave had served for a certain length of time.

  4. #4
    Cornelius Plautus's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Really not true. Slavery in the Roman Empire was exceptionally brutal. Slaves involved in heavy industry or employed as rowers lived particularly brutal and typically very short lives. But even on a farm a slave would be set free to starve when he became too old to work. This would only change as slaves became less available and slave owners began to care for and breed them.



    True, but what money? Buying your own freedom still was only permitted after a slave had served for a certain length of time.
    Huh. Thanks for letting me know. Anyhow, do you know typically how long it was before their owners allowed them to buy their freedom, or was it relative to the owner?


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  5. #5

    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Aulus Cornelius Lepidus View Post
    Huh. Thanks for letting me know. Anyhow, do you know typically how long it was before their owners allowed them to buy their freedom, or was it relative to the owner?
    The owner. Keep in mind that the freemen that we have the most information for are the freemen of exceptionally wealthy Romans, that invariably work for them even as freemen. These were also almost always incredibly educated, in practical terms, elite slaves. Slaves were also often freed in a master's will.

    However, there were rules governing freeing slaves. Off the top of my head;

    Augustus made it so that slaves could not be freed before the age of thirty,
    No household could free more than 100 slaves (and fewer, depending on how affluent the household)

    However, in fairness the very existance of these laws suggests that Augustus felt too many slaves were being freed. We do know that about 5% of the population of Rome was made up of freemen. Keep in mind though that a law by Claudius ruled that a sick slave abandoned by his owner, and recovered, became a freeman. That should tell you all you need to know about the Roman attitude to their slaves.
    Last edited by removeduser_487563287433; December 09, 2009 at 04:08 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Roman Morality

    On slavery: Roman slavery started out as extremely brutal, with very few rights for slaves. As the Empire progressed various emperors passed decrees improving the lives of slaves and giving them more rights, such as the right not to be killed just because the master felt like it.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Stark of Winterfell View Post
    On slavery: Roman slavery started out as extremely brutal, with very few rights for slaves. As the Empire progressed various emperors passed decrees improving the lives of slaves and giving them more rights, such as the right not to be killed just because the master felt like it.
    In all fairness, during the Republic you were allowed to kill your son if you felt like it. So being able to do so to a slave was not actually all that bad.

    Roman household slavery was actually quite lax. But when an escape attempt was caught, all those who could have had knowledge were to be killed. One slave master have over 100 household slaves, and when a few tried to escape the courts ruled that it could not be known how many slaves knew they were going to try to escape so, despite the masters' wishes, the slaves were all executed.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Roman Morality

    They were barbaric by todays standards but then everyone was. They were however far more liberal and easy going as well.
    Last edited by Helm; December 09, 2009 at 04:02 PM.

  9. #9
    ROFL Copter's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Roman Morality

    One thing about the arena, gladiators very rarely fought to the death. It was a waste of money. The idea that they always did is a product of Hollywood.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by ROFL Copter View Post
    One thing about the arena, gladiators very rarely fought to the death. It was a waste of money. The idea that they always did is a product of Hollywood.
    Also the aristocracy was almost expected to go to lunch during the executions, as they were seen as below them an too, dare I say, violent. Gladiator fights were like boxing or UFC (only put like barb wire on the gloves lol), the intent was not to kill, but it was certainly very violent in nature.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Roman Morality

    excellent thread
    +rep

  12. #12
    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: Roman Morality

    What I've never understood was the moral ground of enslaving people in the roman era? Where was the justification? Back in th 1700's black's were enslaved because they were 'inferior'. How did romans or greeks or whatever justfify enslaving people?
    Last edited by Claudius Gothicus; December 10, 2009 at 12:06 PM.

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  13. #13
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Gothicus View Post
    What I've understood was the moral ground of enslaving people in the roman era? Where was the justification? Back in th 1700's black's were enslaved because they were 'inferior'. How did romans or greeks or whatever justfify enslaving people?
    Well they actually didn't much think about it. It was just there and that's it. Part of the world many generations before them lived in.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Roman Morality

    One aspect of Roman slavery which is often overlooked is that house slaves and industrial slaves were two completely different things.

    Female house slaves were basically concubines. Some of the more prudish argued that the female slaves were kept for breeding more slaves, yet a pregnant slave was worth LESS than a non pregnant one and a buyer could get his money back if a virgin slave turned out to not be a virgin. Many male house slaves which rose in power and were freed were the children of the owner. They were treated quite well and many became the powers that be in Rome.

    Slaves in the fields and the mines etc, were treated very poorly and rarely freed for any reason.

    This of course doesn't cover the educated slaves and other aspects, but I think it helps explain why so many male slaves were freed by their masters.
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    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Slaves in the fields and the mines etc, were treated very poorly and rarely freed for any reason.
    Is there any demographic correlation with this? Meaning, were slaves in the mines or the fields composed of a certain type of people, eg prisoners taken in war?
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Is there any demographic correlation with this? Meaning, were slaves in the mines or the fields composed of a certain type of people, eg prisoners taken in war?
    Good question and one I can't answer without research.
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  17. #17
    Flavius Nevitta's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Is there any demographic correlation with this? Meaning, were slaves in the mines or the fields composed of a certain type of people, eg prisoners taken in war?
    I don't know about the exact demographic makeup of the slaves in the mindes. BUT there are several occasions we know of where people were sentenced to become slaves in such mines.

    So yes, criminals were condemned to work there, but I can't tell you how high the percentage was. They probably really did make up a large part.

    I remember an Imperial sentence against Christians(ß) in Africa (I think it was Diocletian, would have to look it up), where he ordered lower class people to get killed, while higher class people and Roman officials were to be sent to the mines.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Is there any demographic correlation with this? Meaning, were slaves in the mines or the fields composed of a certain type of people, eg prisoners taken in war?

    certainly in Ceasers time most of the slaves in mines where Gauls or Germans and had a terrible life expectancy, while household slaves and especially those who taught the children, where greeks, a proportion of whom had sold themselves into slavery, as a freedman became part of his former masters tribe, making gaining citizenship easier.

  19. #19
    manofarms89's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Is there any demographic correlation with this? Meaning, were slaves in the mines or the fields composed of a certain type of people, eg prisoners taken in war?
    ive read several times that most gladiators were either Gallic or Thracian

    we mustn't also forget the many slave rebellions in Rome's history

    While in the early Republic homosexuality was tollerated (but not encouraged, since men needed to create more Roman babies), pedophilia was abhored as a degenerate Greek practice, to be shunned and discouraged. Therefore, conservative Romans, (see the examples from section I) were generally adverse to both homosexuality and pedophilia (Augustus, specifically battle those two practices, as he was adamant about restoring the sanctity of marriage -ironically, that seems to be what the modern conservative argument agiants homosexuality is-). Once again we see Roman conservativism coinsiding with the ideals of modern morality.
    actually homosexuality and pederasty both became quite accepted during the mid and late republic, while also enjoying varying degrees of popularity during the empire.

    there is no need to speak of the atrocities commited on the Internet. While modern media outlets like video games substitute real violence with pretended violence, when a child who has played those games for too long is exposed to real violence, or that of a serious film (such as Saving Private Ryan), they often respond to gore and violence with mirthful laughter.
    really? you can play violent video games all you want, but it will never make you used to real violence. i found nothing funny about saving private ryan when i was nine, nor do i now.
    Last edited by manofarms89; December 10, 2009 at 01:41 PM.

  20. #20
    Cornelius Plautus's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Roman Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by manofarms89 View Post
    really? you can play violent video games all you want, but it will never make you used to real violence. i found nothing funny about saving private ryan when i was nine, nor do i now.
    Maybe you were just a developmentally advanced nine year old, as I was. I wrote what I wrote based on personal experiences, and certainly not all children delight in violence, just many of the ones I've spoken with in the past.

    Additionally, my point was not to paint Rome as a completely moral society, but rather to point out that moral groups existed within its boundries, even in the upper eschelons of society.
    Last edited by Cornelius Plautus; December 10, 2009 at 07:14 PM.


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