Mini High Elves-AAR and questions on diplomacy

**Atli** · December 09, 2009, 08:09 AM

I just finished/abandoned an awesome but in the end somewhat frustrating campaign as the High Elves. I’d like to share my experiences with you; and there are some questions at the end.

I played most factions (except Eriador, Harad and Dale) in TATW 1.0 and 1.1. I prefer the factions that are in the middle of the action, but for my first campaign in TATW I chose the High Elves, M/M, just to get the feeling of the mod. After that I’ve played on VH/VH.

At some point, I changed the diplomacy section of the descr_strat file to have all good factions allied from the beginning, and the same with the evil ones. I don’t remember that the following campaigns were noticeably easier; the advantage of being sure that I wouldn’t be attacked by factions of my own “ideology” probably compensated the fact that I don’t reload after my not very uncommon strategical and tactical errors.

After a couple of months doing other things, I came back to TATW, installed 1.3 (overwriting my changes in the descr_strat.txt) and played as Dale, the Silvan Elves and the High Elves.

In the first two campaigns, there weren’t wars between good factions, even if they weren’t allied (but I think they all allied eventually).

In the Dale campaign, Rohan and Eriador fared well against Isengard; Minas Tirith fell, of course, but Gondor survived and was restored to its former glory with my help; the HE, the Dwarves and the SE eliminated the OotMM but after that they just turtled.

In the SE campaign, Gondor and Rohan were eliminated early on; Eriador, HE and the Dwarves were strong but didn’t move from their isolation; Dale was rather weak and at some point almost swallowed by Rhûn. I conquered lands from the Easterlings and gave them to Dale only to see how they lost them again ten turns later

. I advanced slowly until I eliminated Mordor and Rhûn, repelled Harad and abandoned after I learnt how to effectively deal with mûmakil.

Then I installed the Expanded Map submod and started the High Elves campaign. I don’t know how adding more regions can affect the relations between good factions, but I’ve had a very different experience this time. I allied myself with all the good factions but at different points of the game the Silvan Elves attacked Dale, Rohan attacked the Silvans, Dale attacked me, Eriador attacked Rohan, the Dwarves and Eriador attacked me, I eliminated Eriador...

More details on the campaign:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The first part of the campaign was very gratifying. It took me some time, as usual, to build my alliances and get military access, which feels better than having it all from the beginning. When there were no more rebel settlements in the west, I moved my generals and armies to the east. The Dwarves helped a lot against the OotMM and I had an epic battle where Elrond faced a very mighty Orc leader with the One Ring.

Well, many turns later, when Isengard and the OotMM were no more, I noticed that Minas Tirith had fallen, so I sent Elrond with the most experienced troops to help Gondor. An invasion was called against Edoras. Elrond’s full stack of battle-hardened elves arrived just in time to meet the invading armies at the gates of Edoras. The Elves and the Rohirrim fought side to side in the King’s Lands against the hordes of Mordor, Harad and Rhûn. One of the greatest moments of the game, only darkened by the news of a war between my allies the Silvan Elves and the Men of Dale.

I don’t remember who started that war. I think it was the Silvans, but I prefered them, because we shared a long border and, well, they’re Elves. I noticed that Dale had already two settlements in east Mirkwood. If I had written an AAR, I’d have said that Dale –or more exactly the rebuilt Kingdom of Rhovanion– hungry for resources to fuel their wars against the Easterlings, had started to grow into Mirkwood, and reduce the habitat of the Silvan Elves, to what they probably opposed resistance until the conflict escalated.

I thought that wouldn’t have happened if I had the starting alliances, but that unexpected war actually made the game more interesting.

Anyway, some turns later, while I was besieging Minas Tirith and sending more troops from my homelands towards the Pelennor Fields, I noticed two Rohan armies walking with determination towards a settlement of the Silvan Elves, with whom they were not allied. Next turn, they attacked. What now? I had to remain true to the Silvan Elves, even more because they had not provoked this war... but that meant that my armies on the way to save Gondor’s ****s would upset the Rohirrim, whose ****s I had saved not long ago... I found this very unrealistic.

I almost never reload, because it breaks inmersion, giving me the feeling that I have more control of the situation than I actually should. But now I reloaded and exchanged regions with the SE (nothing very unrealistic, their kingdom remained contiguous and mine too), so that they did not share borders with Rohan. That worked: Rohan’s armies went back to their own lands.

Encouraged by that diplomatic success, I found an unusual but effective solution to the Dalian-Silvan conflict: I cancelled my alliance with the Silvans, made an alliance with Dale, gave them money and lands to their south in exchange for lands to their west (that is, in Mirkwood), then made again an alliance with the Silvans, giving them the regions of Mirkwood and forcing by game mechanics a ceasefire between them and Dale. Now they were at peace and I was allied to both.You might find that weird, but that’s the closest to peace mediation you can get in this game.

But the Dalian-Silvan war started again some years later. Anyway, this time I ignored it and concentrated all my efforts in the slow but steady destruction of Mordor. Next thing I knew was that Thranduil had been slain, I was sharing a long border with Dale and the SE were reduced to three settlements in Lothlórien. I also noticed that my relations with Dale were “poor” and they were already moving armies through my own unprotected regions.

Well, Mordor was destroyed in another epic battle before Barad-dûr, where Elrond the Just faced the Witch King (that’s what I meant with awesome campaign, these kind of situations never happened in my other campaigns). I had recruited more troops than my economy could support and was already almost bankrupt. My initial intentions had been to help Gondor against Harad after finishing Mordor, but it was time to settle the score with the Men of Dale. I sent all my armies to the north. Elrond and Elladan did not arrive too early. Dale attacked me. It was a long war, with many ceasefires, but I conquered all of Mirkwood; Bard the Tyrant was killed by Elladan and Thranduil was avenged.

Now the Dwarves had broken their alliance with me and soon they were concentrating forces on my borders. My cities in the west had a minimal garrison and I had not built advanced military buildings there. Against all odds, I was able to repel a strong Dwarven army with only my light archers, light infantry and two generals. Every time I made a ceasefire with Dale I could get an alliance with the Dwarves, giving them a lot of money, but then Dale attacked me again and the cycle repeated.

The first attack of the Dwarves made Eriador break the alliance with me. I had to move continuously troops through their lands, and they hated me for that.

Then Eriador attacked Rohan. That made things even more difficult, because I could not get an alliance with Eriador while I was allied with Rohan, even if I was at peace with Dale and the Dwarves. And finally Eriador attacked me too.

Then it all got messy. It was a succession of wars and ceasefires with the Axis of Dwarves-Eriador-Dale. I realised that the only hope for peace in the west was the elimination of Eriador. I went out of character and destroyed them, because I still wanted to be the good High Elves helping the good factions against the evil ones...

I forgot to say that in my wars against Dale, the Dwarves and Eriador, I always occupied cities and released prisoners. But with so many wars and movement of troops without military access, my global reputation sank to “deceitful” and even Gondor, Rohan and the Silvans were liking me less and less. Or is it the fact that I was the strongest faction?

I finally sent two fleets with elite troops and two generals and landed in the southernmost regions of Harad, and moved northwards while Gondor’s armies advanced to the south. I had a lot of money again, I paid huge sums to the Dwarves and Dale to make them like me, but I couldn’t be allied with them anymore: there was no such option.

Until that point, and despite the fact that I did not want to fight against good factions, I found all those unexpected wars rather interesting. But the last events of the campaign were rather frustrating. The Dwarves allied with my allies the Silvan Elves. For some reason, everybody seems to dislike me, though I’m still playing as honourably as possible, always occupying settlements and releasing prisoners (even Haradrim). I see two full stacks of Dwarves full of Iron Guard and Erebor Axemen and Dragonslayers marching directly towards my easternmost settlements. They have nothing to look for here, since their only enemy, Rhûn, is far to the south-east, beyond Mordor. I know that they’ll attack me, and I know (I see it with my elvish foresight) that the Silvan Elves will break their alliance with me, and being almost totally surrounded by me, they will soon move from neutral to enemies, and I will end up killing Elves and conquering Lothlórien and having a long bloody war against the Dwarves... Well, since I have already 65 regions and all the orcish factions are destroyed (see pic), I quit.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

So my questions are:

1- Could this aggressivity of good against good be related with the Expanded Map submod? Has anyone playing with this submod had similar experiences?
2- Don’t you find it very annoying that everytime two of your allies declare war to each other and you are forced to drop one of them, your global reputation sinks? I mean, if I’m the HE I would obviously want to be allied with Rohan and Eriador, and it’s not at all my fault if one of them attacks the other! In the descr_faction_standing.txt there’s a list of “transgressions” that affect your global standing, do you know which one represents this situation (breaking an alliance because of a war between two of your allies)? My guess is:
Trigger 0078c_DT_Break_Alliance_Neutral
WhenToTest Transgression

Condition TransgressionName = TC_BROKE_ALLIANCE
and DiplomaticStanceFactions = Neutral

3- What do you think of having all factions of the same “ideology” allied from the beginning? I prefer to build my alliances, and some internal conflicts are OK, but I don't like so many wars between good factions. Is there a more elegant solution?

**Tuatha Mordred** · December 09, 2009, 09:47 AM

I enjoyed reading that. Makes me wanna drop my Rohan campaign and re-try that HE campaign to completion this time.

**eugenioso** · December 10, 2009, 08:26 AM

uugh the high elves

i just plain dont like them at all.

**Grand Admiral Thrawn** · December 10, 2009, 03:11 PM

Answers to your questions:

1 - I've started 3 campagins so far using this submod. High Elves (Silvan Elves attacked Dwarfs and were wiped out), Rohan (Silvan Elves attacked Dale and being wiped out), Rhun (Silvan Elves attacked Dale and again are being wiped out + Isengard attacked Mordor which in subsequent turns had been 'excommunicated' and now all evil factions including mine are at war with Mordor - Total War it is.

2 - I didn't know about that one! So yes, now that I know yes it is.

3 - A very good idea.

There are overall few glitches but the submod gives almost 50 new regions so the pro and cons are balanced I guess.

**Atli** · December 10, 2009, 04:10 PM

Thanks y'all!
@Tuatha Mordred, if you really wanna try, here's the save.

**confused german** · December 10, 2009, 08:18 PM

Looking at the map you showed,
i think i understand why dale and dwarfes attacked you:

>>>If you look at it at a pure med2-perspective (no lore), you'll see that the expansion of your empire
1.) not only threatened their borders (who say, you would stop there, after all your reputation was bad),
2.) but more sadly, the borderlines of your realm either hindered them to connect their existing "isles" of land (dwarfes),
3.) or were the only possible way of expanding their own (dale - they prefer attacking you since the dwarfes, their other neigbour, seems to be even stronger on their borders than you. Copy that?).

Make your neighbours be occupied with/worried about someone else!
Of course i don't know how exactly this picture developed, but i would suggest you had needed a more serious geopolitical approach to keep in peace with these brothers. I think the way you brought peace to Silvan-Dale conflict the first time was quite tricky and the right direction.
1.) I don't know when you took the northernmost settlements, then forming a splint between two dwarfen realms, but since i usually prefer save borders to just "more money", i would have given them those settlements. Probably by present. These would allow them to form one empire, strenghtening them, but (since they should be expected friends), that's no worry. Their drive to attack your lands should be diminished and could be further by giving them something to worry about besides your lands (for example giving some weak dwarf-border-regions of your outermost east to rhun [if you don't care about the rep here] should keep them occupied for a while and could be good, if you manage to stay out of local conflict.)

2.) An useful approach for dale could be to "structure" the borderland of your untrustable should-be-ally more diversly. Surround them is threatening, so give bordelands away to a third and fourth more or less trustable party. Try to "criss-cross" different factions lands in a way they have isolated isles, surrounded by possible threats or untrusty allies.
So dividing the lands into a gondor-rohan-dale-dwarfes-silvan- mixed patchwork, everyone should be unable to create heavy forces locally (destroying all possible buildings before giving away will add to this - peasent-armies don't march out) and so not daring to leave a settlement to besiege another.
This way you create a kind of puffer-belt between your main lands and possible threats. Moreover granting many regions as present might even re-do your rep and your relationships to the named parties. Your own positions should remain strong, even although you lost land. I'd suggest to form a strong and compact center realm with no endangered islands plus at least one locally superior outpost or "arm" into the "patchworked" borderlands.

I suppose that you gain power this way, although you diminish in region numbers. After a certain phase of re-structuring the "belt"-area, your nothern borders shouldn't need more than some spies to be secured. Full focus could be given to the evil in the south.

I hope this helped a bit or at least freshed up some ideas.
Nice epic battles!