Sexual Orientation At Birth

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

I've been reading some arguments concerning sexual orientation at birth, most come from LBGT debates, it got me thinking about the subject lately.

Let us suspend our disbelief for this thought experiment. Suppose a baby boy and a baby girl lived in a secluded environment from the beginning of their lives up until death... By suspending our disbelief, we will assume that they are the only two humans in this environment. They have no knowledge of other existing human beings and they somehow survived without a caretaker...

From this example, it is my belief that the two will remain asexual even as they age through puberty. Why? Because I believe sexuality is affected by outside influences. Think about it, we can assume the two will not have any knowledge of sex, that means they will either live together in a nonsexual relationship or try to kill each other...

Of course this scenario is impossible, the babies will be exposed to sexuality the moment they are born, I'm still reading on the subject but you can look it up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosexual_development

So I'm going to post a poll, just place your vote for one of the selected options then write a comment below. Thanks

[Nimthill]

I doubt it. Animals have sex instinctively, even without sexual education from their parents. Dogs are a good example, usually taken away from their parents after a few weeks after birth, yet they still manage to have sex.

First time will just be really, really awkward for those hypothethical babies

[Monarchist]

I believe sexual orientation is heterosexual at birth, and is corrupted by some sort of trauma afterward. Of course, I am not a scientist of any sort and never will be, so my opinion is invalid. I'm just voicing it for fun.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Kay....the OP and poll's somewhat confusing to me, so I'll take a guess at what your looking for...Speaking just for myself I can tell you that my orientation is genetic. About first grade I was aware that my orientation was same gender. I was physically & verbally abused but the gender orientation was present before the abuse ever took hold.

To my understanding orientation is either genetic or influenced by environment or abuse. In my case definitely genetic.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

To my understanding orientation is either genetic or influenced by environment or abuse. In my case definitely genetic.

How do you know it's not from influence, were your parents homosexual? How did you come to the conclusion that you were homosexual, I mean obviously you started liking guys but I'm curious about the first instance...

[Monarchist]

How do you know it's not from influence, were your parents homosexual? How did you come to the conclusion that you were homosexual, I mean obviously you started liking guys but I'm curious about the first instance...

You may be asking Mega Tortas, but please allow me to give my own answer.

My parents are both completely heterosexual, and never even mentioned homosexuality. The first encounter I had with homosexuality was a pop-up advert telling me about "hot men sex fetish". That was after I knew there was something about the same gender that enticed me. When I was 10 or 11, I might notice things such as "oh, John's looking quite good today", though it was completely a-sexual at first. On the contrary, when I saw a girl I might say "Oh, there's Melissa". A subtle difference, and not even worth noting, perhaps? Maybe it's everything - I just knew I vaguely preferred males to females.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

My parents are both completely heterosexual, and never even mentioned homosexuality. The first encounter I had with homosexuality was a pop-up advert telling me about "hot men sex fetish". That was after I knew there was something about the same gender that enticed me.

Well I think this would cause anyone to think twice about sexuality. I will admit that I entertained the thought a bit, but it never moved past the point of "Hey I wonder... Ewwww..." Does that disgust come from outside influences, maybe but the thought doesn't even cross my mind often... It's sort of like those days when you think, "What if I were together with this really ugly chick..." You think about it for a second and then the thought just shuts off...

When I was 10 or 11, I might notice things such as "oh, John's looking quite good today", though it was completely a-sexual at first.

Yea that's not necessarily homosexual. "Looking good" is an accepted compliment from guy to guy or girl to girl.

On the contrary, when I saw a girl I might say "Oh, there's Melissa". A subtle difference, and not even worth noting, perhaps? Maybe it's everything - I just knew I vaguely preferred males to females.

Maybe she wasn't hot enough to notice But do you feel attraction towards really attractive females?

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

How do you know it's not from influence, were your parents homosexual? How did you come to the conclusion that you were homosexual, I mean obviously you started liking guys but I'm curious about the first instance...

Ite, in 1st grade you play doctor. For me I can think of two girls and about 10 guys. The ten guys had things I was really attracted to. The girls.....not so much. How do I know it's not from influence? Because the draw to males preceded any abuse. Just as background info, divorced parents, lived with the Terminal alcoholic Mother who like to hit and scream obscenities.

Also to my understanding the procreational instinct is present in all creatures in one form or another. So....your boy and girl may well have experimented which is also common place in pre-pubescent & adolescence. "The urge to merge".

I just knew I vaguely preferred males to females

Speak for yourself, guys had it going on for me since the word go... Kay guess I'll add this as well. I was married at one point for 5 years. The attraction was predominantly emotional.

[Caecilius]

As I have read somewhere (I can't remember where exactly, it was a long time ago) that humans (particularly men) are apparently bisexual at birth. Essentially society turns us straight (or tries to). Actually a quick google search has revealed that Freud postulated this view.

Look at our development as a species, with early humans I really don't see that much difference between men and women and I'm sure early humans did not either.

We already know that in ancient societies or societies less prudish than our own that there was no real concept of heterosexuality or homosexuality and sex was seen as a primal impulse much like the urge to eat or drink. So perhaps we all put too much thought into it than we should.

[Monarchist]

As I have read somewhere (I can't remember where exactly, it was a long time ago) that humans (particularly men) are apparently bisexual at birth. Essentially society turns us straight (or tries to). Actually a quick google search has revealed that Freud postulated this view.

Gross. The moment I hear that any view is from Freud, I discount it. The whole "society does it!" just doesn't seem to fit for me. Some things require extensive psychoanalytic research, but they still need to be supported by a feeling of common sense. It just doesn't seem sensible that such a thing is. Then again, the urge of heterosexual men to have as many women as possible is just as strong as the urge of homosexual men to have as many men as possible. Might there be a pre-natal connection to choices?

Anyway, if society forces people into it, and human society has generally not crumbled for ten thousand years, perhaps we shouldn't ask too many questions.

[Arch-hereticK]

Anyway, if society forces people into it, and human society has generally not crumbled for ten thousand years, perhaps we shouldn't ask too many questions.

But if we all went queer right now we might solve a lot of our over-population/teen-pregnancy/orphanege over-crowding, we might...........just might survive another 10,000 years.

[Helm]

How can you be sexually orientated when you don't even know where you are?

[Yosemite]

How can you be sexually orientated when you don't even know where you are?

yes that's kind of funny

also, just because animals do it all over the place doesn't mean we have to become animals and do it all over the place in public like how animals do
we got this thing called education and that's what makes us superior to animals
take away all the technology and education, we just go back inside the food chain instead of on top of it

if i am not attracted to a male body, is it really because of the outside influence? are babbies really bisexual? does this mean homosexuality is influenced by society?

i mean, i just find nothing attractive to a man, and never have, is it really because of society?

but what i know is that, you are not born a furry, you become one
and it's bad

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, logically, since you don't feel sexual attraction until puberty, people may be said to be 'asexual' at birth.

[Phier]

Well, logically, since you don't feel sexual attraction until puberty, people may be said to be 'asexual' at birth.

BUT sex roles themselves are genetic as well. This is noted by any parent. For example my boy has turned every inanimate object into a gun since he was 18 months old. My daughter puts a baby doll in a stroller and gives it a bottle, she just turned 2.

Neither my wife or I have done anything to assign gender specific toys or roles. She is free to play with the 'boy' toys and he with the girls. He sets up mock battles with his toys, she has no such interest.

Interesting, the TV show intervention, had a lesbian woman who's father was a conservative christian. They grew up on a farm and showed her pictures growing up. She was chasing pigs in the mud, short hair cuts, dressed like a boy, no makeup in highschool. Dad was shocked she became a lesbian

Now this is of course my anecdotal evidence but there have been serious studies on this, and if you can escape the utter wishful thinking crap by people like Margette Mead and the like from the 70's, you will see that what we are as men and women is truly defined from either birth or very shortly there after, and has nothing to do with later trauma in life.

[Carpathian Wolf]

BUT sex roles themselves are genetic as well. This is noted by any parent. For example my boy has turned every inanimate object into a gun since he was 18 months old. My daughter puts a baby doll in a stroller and gives it a bottle, she just turned 2.

Neither my wife or I have done anything to assign gender specific toys or roles. She is free to play with the 'boy' toys and he with the girls. He sets up mock battles with his toys, she has no such interest.

Interesting, the TV show intervention, had a lesbian woman who's father was a conservative christian. They grew up on a farm and showed her pictures growing up. She was chasing pigs in the mud, short hair cuts, dressed like a boy, no makeup in highschool. Dad was shocked she became a lesbian

Now this is of course my anecdotal evidence but there have been serious studies on this, and if you can escape the utter wishful thinking crap by people like Margette Mead and the like from the 70's, you will see that what we are as men and women is truly defined from either birth or very shortly there after, and has nothing to do with later trauma in life.

Kids pick up on very subtle things. So maybe you didn't "teach" your children that directly but they see things and work off of them.

I think really it's all learned behavior and choice. I don't believe there is anything genetic about it, or personalities. That's non sense. And for every study you find me that says one way I can find one that says the other way. In short the human nature, spirit and mind is too complex to generalize in any form.

[Phier]

Kids pick up on very subtle things. So maybe you didn't "teach" your children that directly but they see things and work off of them.

I think really it's all learned behavior and choice. I don't believe there is anything genetic about it, or personalities. That's non sense. And for every study you find me that says one way I can find one that says the other way. In short the human nature, spirit and mind is too complex to generalize in any form.

Well you can think what you like. I'm sure my boy is picking up on my subtle cues that says 'War fun!' and my daughter that she should carry her baby doll with her and give it a bottle while pushing it around in a stroller.

You have closed your mind off the to the science, that much is obvious with your studies line, but unlike most wrong opinions yours can be quite cruel when it comes to legislation of behavior.

[Carpathian Wolf]

Well you can think what you like. I'm sure my boy is picking up on my subtle cues that says 'War fun!' and my daughter that she should carry her baby doll with her and give it a bottle while pushing it around in a stroller.

You have closed your mind off the to the science, that much is obvious with your studies line, but unlike most wrong opinions yours can be quite cruel when it comes to legislation of behavior.

I haven't closed my mind off "to the science." Simply that science says both one and the other. At best it is inconclusive. For you to say there is a gene out there that makes boys play with guns and girls with stroller's, sorry but that's laughable. How did we get a gene to evolve that fast from the time that there didn't exist strollers and guns?

And what is cruel about it? And who is legislating behavior? Me or you?

[Amorphos]

Phier

what we are as men and women is truly defined from either birth or very shortly there after

We can make the decision though, so whatever is set at birth can be negated. Personally I think sexuality itself is mixed up, I mean e.g. :wub: means you like your own sex, anal sex is more or less the same with a man or woman ~ an anus is an anus.

perhaps many people mainly 'choose' to be heti's due to the greater desire to have a family and be like everyone else.

[Phier]

Phier



We can make the decision though, so whatever is set at birth can be negated. Personally I think sexuality itself is mixed up, I mean e.g. :wub: means you like your own sex, anal sex is more or less the same with a man or woman ~ an anus is an anus.

perhaps many people mainly 'choose' to be heti's due to the greater desire to have a family and be like everyone else.

No we can't. I can choose to commit a homosexual act, but I can't choose to desire it.

And when I was 18 I wasn't woman crazy because I wanted children, I was because my genes were telling me to GET LAID. No male anus would do, or was even in the equation. The LAST thing I wanted at that time would have been a family.

Plus I have no idea where you get :wub: = you like your own sex. That reminds me of the concept that if you like women with shaved genitals you are a pedophile. Now if you :wub: OTHERS of your sex then you might be onto something.