War instead of diplomacy

**Blofeld2k** · December 07, 2009, 08:30 AM

Since CA clearly are incapable of creating an AI that comprehends complex diplomacy I think CA should take a step back and concentrate on the time periods where complex diplomacy was not a part of the way countries did business.

To redeem themselves I think CA should do Rome 2 or Shogun 2, or create a whole new product focusing on what they do good, war, instead of what they do not so good, diplomacy. I think Rome worked since people didn't care too much that the diplomacy part was less than perfect, in Roman times my view is that you rather killed your opponent than sat down and talked to him.

This way they can divert the resources spent on diplomacy and instead perfect things that are still missing when it comes to war making. I'm thinking of sieges etc.

Thoughts, comments?

**GasMask** · December 07, 2009, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Blofeld2k

Since CA clearly are incapable of creating an AI that comprehends complex diplomacy I think CA should take a step back and concentrate on the time periods where complex diplomacy was not a part of the way countries did business.

To redeem themselves I think CA should do Rome 2 or Shogun 2, or create a whole new product focusing on what they do good, war, instead of what they do not so good, diplomacy. I think Rome worked since people didn't care too much that the diplomacy part was less than perfect, in Roman times my view is that you rather killed your opponent than sat down and talked to him.

This way they can divert the resources spent on diplomacy and instead perfect things that are still missing when it comes to war making. I'm thinking of sieges etc.

Thoughts, comments?

Shogun 2 END THREAD

Shogun 2 will come because its the only title which has not had a remake that said rome total war to

I will buy shogun 2 100%

Or rome 2

Im a samurai NUT

**Carpe Veritas** · December 07, 2009, 08:39 AM

I think they have to go back in time now anyway - we dont want another 'world war 1 or 2' game. I want to see Shogun 2 personally - It was a great game and with what they can do these days (just picture the unit animations!) it could be epic.

**Bwaho** · December 07, 2009, 08:42 AM

They should include Mongolia, Korea and China if they make Shogun 2.

Personally I don't like all out war. It takes the fun out of it. Just spend more time on the AI... 1.5 saw an improvement of CAI and that's the right direction.

**Blofeld2k** · December 07, 2009, 08:46 AM

Not to turn this into a "what should be the next game" thread that will be closed in no time, any thought's on focusing on making war instead of making diplomacy?

**daniu** · December 07, 2009, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Blofeld2k

any thought's on focusing on making war instead of making diplomacy?

Ahem... isn't "the AI declares war on me for no reason and it's impossible to get it to agree to peace" one of the most common complaints about the CAI?
Maybe I understand you wrong, but ETW is focusing on war too much for most people apparently.

EDIT:
Oh, and: Goooooooo Shogun II

**Blofeld2k** · December 07, 2009, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by daniu

Ahem... isn't "the AI declares war on me for no reason and it's impossible to get it to agree to peace" one of the most common complaints about the CAI?
Maybe I understand you wrong, but ETW is focusing on war too much for most people apparently.

True, but what I meant was that since diplomacy was more complex in post-medieval times than in pre-medieval times you don't need a very advanced diplomacy AI if you play Shogun 2 or Rome 2. Of course it still needs to be able to make peace...

**Carpe Veritas** · December 07, 2009, 08:50 AM

They should include Mongolia, Korea and China if they make Shogun 2.

Seconded you could spread it to the whole of Asia and even include Indian factions at a push - The Mongols quickly invaded even as far as Iraq, and Japan invaded China and Korea very early.

**Dodge** · December 07, 2009, 08:57 AM

Under the urn, churl.

**burden010** · December 07, 2009, 10:30 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an American Civil War expansion before any future games are even thought about.

**Fotchimus** · December 07, 2009, 10:48 AM

I like what diplomacy is in the game even though it is limited. I like forming alliances to secure certain land borders. Patch 1.3 annoyed me to no end when alliances were useless and everyone backstabbed you. It seems they corrected that in 1.4/1.5 so you aren't immediately at war with all your neighbors. For example, as Russia I know Poland will not backstab me as long as relations are good. If alliances and trade rights work correctly, anything else is just gravy. When those don't work, I may as well just play a series of battles because there's no strategy involved on the campaign map.

**HomelessDepot** · December 07, 2009, 10:46 AM

Everytime this comes up I vote for Shogun 2. I really think it'll be another Rome though. It's just a shame CA bit off way more than they could chew with Empire's AI. Doesn't matter how great it sounds in theory, if the end result doesn't work it's just wasted. This is the classic realist period, correct? War as an extension of politics? And yet the system seems to fail more than it succeeds when you're trying to fight to anything except the complete and total destruction of your enemy. It's sad.

-HD

**Ragerancher** · December 07, 2009, 10:54 AM

Ca should ask the Paradox team about diplomacy. I know people hate the EU3 - Total war comparison but EU3 does have a fantastic diplomacy model (and it's going to be improved further). Get some inspiration from there.

**General_Meevious** · December 07, 2009, 08:37 PM

Eh, I've never been one for conversing with the enemy (they are all the enemy). I used to use my starting diplomat as a scout. In Empire, there is no diplomat to worry about (hooray). As far as I'm concerned, troop movement intelligence should never be compromised for diplomatic intelligence, but I really doubt it was the same people (or person...) working on both in Empire and as CA seems to know all too well, too many cooks spoil the broth.

**ChristianB** · December 08, 2009, 12:52 AM

I agree with the OP. CA can't go forward and they obviously fail at AI - and in my opinion, especially the diplomacy. They have to go back to either Shogun or Rome and do what they do best. Epic melee engagements, sieges, empires. They should never ever make a "modern" era game again unless they manage to fix diplomacy.

**Condottiere SOG** · December 28, 2009, 01:32 PM

Well its safe to say that the horrible historical representations are part of why people do not know their history today!

If they ever get the AI aspects down perhaps they should stick to fantasy settings...

**NJGOAT** · December 28, 2009, 02:09 PM

I think we are going to see the push towards war over diplomacy. ETW attempted a grand scale game in a time period of immensely complicated diplomatic and economic relations between nations. The AI is simply not up to the task of dealing in large open ended possibilities and it really hurts a game placed during this time. However, the engine is good and I think they are going to go the micro-conflict route. This will let them focus more on the military and economy and only have limited diplomacy.

Next up is Napoleon which will focus on a narrow (albeit grand) campagin and a specific limited time period. The goal of France is to conquer Europe and enforce the Continental System, the goal of the allies is to stop them. The upfront definition of sides and goals will make it much easier for the AI to function.

Along that route an American Civil War game would fit right in. There are only two sides and the goals are very clear. Additionally you could add a more detailed American Revolution game, a Crimean war game, etc. This will allow them to fine tune the campaign and battle AI and relieve it of the burden of having to make grand strategic decisions.

So, I definitely think that we may have seen the end of the truly global grand scale game and they will take a step back to a more narrow focused of particular time periods and conflicts.

While I would love a Shogun 2 or Rome 2, one area I would really like to get the Total War treatment would be the Three Kingdoms period of China. Koei had a great series of games on this time period and it seems like it would be a great time period for a Total War game with a ton of great story lines to draw from and diverse locations/generals/units, etc.