The apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church ?

[Dracula]

As long as christianity has always thaught that Christ is the Messiah, and who does not acknowledge him but expects another in fact expects an anti-christ, if the RCC is dubious about Christ today, is it even christian any more ?

Or is this just a disgusting move of politics ? What dimensions can politics reach ? Is this even possible ?

Pls share your oppinion on the apostasy of the catholic church if you think it exists.

[Phier]

Well if someone on Youtube said so....

[Dracula]

Well if someone on Youtube said so....

What kind of an arguement is this ?!

[Carpathian Wolf]

Had no idea the problem was this grave.

Phier it's easy to say "lulz utube" without actually watching the video and seeing that it has sources directly from the book Benedict himself wrote.

[Phier]

Had no idea the problem was this grave.

Phier it's easy to say "lulz utube" without actually watching the video and seeing that it has sources directly from the book Benedict himself wrote.

I did, but it doesn't mean I'll accept out of context quotes presented on Youtube as proof of anything, ever.

Edit: I'm not going to sign up to read this, but I did a little digging.

The Vatican has the documents online. In Latin and Italian. Not going to help me much.
So I go to the next hit...

Translation errors in the pontifical biblical commission's The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible.



Biblical Theology Bulletin | March 22, 2005| | COPYRIGHT 2005 Biblical Theology Bulletin, Inc. This material is published under license from the publisher through the Gale Group, Farmington Hills, Michigan. All inquiries regarding rights should be directed to the Gale Group. (Hide copyright information) Copyright


Abstract
The English version of the 2001 book from the Pontifical Biblical Commission, THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND THEIR SACRED SCRIPTURES IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE, has numerous errors in the translation from the French original. These range from errors of fact to what might be construed as doctrinally misleading statements not intended by the Commission's original text. The article reviews the English and French texts of the book paragraph by paragraph to show the errors and the appropriate corrections for English readers.

[Monarchist]

I did, but it doesn't mean I'll accept out of context quotes presented on Youtube as proof of anything, ever.

What is it with the term "out of context" and shutting down argument? The two seem to go so well together, oddly enough. There is no context; the sentences say what they say, friend. I paused the video and read the sentences around the quoted passages; thus, they are in context. I put very little credit in whether something is in or out of context. Words speak for their own so very often. These words speak hilariously depressing words about the Roman Catholic world.

The Roman Catholic Church used to be cooler / more believable before Vatican II.

I agree with you for the second time ever, Stav.

[Monarchist]

! It amazes me how far into 'tolerance', 'sensitivity', and multiculturalism the Catholic Church has fallen. This is complete nonsense. What's the point of believing in Jesus if you say "well, the Jews don't really need to believe in Him, anyway, because they don't have enough proof", when the proof is right there in front of them? This is just a cop-out to feel-good liberal Catholics that don't want to have any guilt over Jews who ask them whether they're saved or not. It's rather scary to think that the Pope has sold off the central belief of his religion just to appease some people!

[Dracula]

! It amazes me how far into 'tolerance', 'sensitivity', and multiculturalism the Catholic Church has fallen. This is complete nonsense. What's the point of believing in Jesus if you say "well, the Jews don't really need to believe in Him, anyway, because they don't have enough proof", when the proof is right there in front of them? This is just a cop-out to feel-good liberal Catholics that don't want to have any guilt over Jews who ask them whether they're saved or not. It's rather scary to think that the Pope has sold off the central belief of his religion just to appease some people!

Yes I couldn't believe it too. Plus the current Pope is known as a conservative.... If this is conservatism in rcc terms...They could at least pretend a bit to be traditional, after all it's the center of millions of christians worldwide..

[Darth Red]

Well, this isn't really new or news. Most older Catholics I know don't care for Benidict at all. He is one of the more liberal Pope's we have had in a long time.

This is just a cop-out to feel-good liberal Catholics that don't want to have any guilt over Jews who ask them whether they're saved or not. It's rather scary to think that the Pope has sold off the central belief of his religion just to appease some people!

This was taken care of when Jesus was crucified, died, and before he went to heaven, he collected all of the un-baptized souls before opening the gates of Heaven for all of us, as the story goes. So yeah, there is no guilt coming from me. The answer is and has always been Yes, they are saved as well.

[Monarchist]

Well, this isn't really new or news. Most older Catholics I know don't care for Benidict at all. He is one of the more liberal Pope's we have had in a long time.



This was taken care of when Jesus was crucified, died, and before he went to heaven, he collected all of the un-baptized souls before opening the gates of Heaven for all of us, as the story goes. So yeah, there is no guilt coming from me. The answer is and has always been Yes, they are saved as well.

How can that be? The Jews deny that Christ was the Son of God and the Logos. That leads directly to Hell, as Jesus said. What saves the Jews, then?

[Darth Red]

How can that be? The Jews deny that Christ was the Son of God and the Logos. That leads directly to Hell, as Jesus said. What saves the Jews, then?

Something I found on the fly that should explain better than me. It's a long read, and I don't want to derail the thread topic too much but this has been something that has been discussed for as long as I can remember. It's part of the mystery and wonder that is Jesus Cruxifiction and what that means to all of us.

You can check it out here

Those defects from which Christ altogether delivered men in this world were purely personal, and concerned the individual; whereas exclusion from God's glory was a general defect and common to all human nature. Consequently, there was nothing to prevent those detained in Purgatory being delivered by Christ from their privation of glory, but not from the debt of punishment in Purgatory which pertains to personal defect. Just as on the other hand, the holy Fathers before Christ's coming were delivered from their personal defects, but not from the common defect

[basics]

" Those defects from which Christ altogether delivered men in this world were purely personal, and concerned the individual; whereas exclusion from God's glory was a general defect and common to all human nature. Consequently, there was nothing to prevent those detained in Purgatory being delivered by Christ from their privation of glory, but not from the debt of punishment in Purgatory which pertains to personal defect. Just as on the other hand, the holy Fathers before Christ's coming were delivered from their personal defects, but not from the common defect "

Darth Red,

When Jesus spoke of a man having to be born again to enter heaven, He meant before death since hell is the only place that the dead in Spirit can go to await the judgement. And once there how can it be that they can then be saved? They have died in their sin never having been washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Of course salvation is personal because the acts performed by the Lord on the cross were for the personages of them that are or will be born again. The general defect was and still is sin for which the Law demands death. Therefore what Jesus Christ did on that cross was essential that the Law could find nothing in them to be saved/converted/born again which could block their paths to heaven when the Father chooses their time for revelation.

The common defect and the personal defect may well be in Catholic terms two different things but they are not in Biblical terms. The former being the curse of sin and the latter being that all men have it should not make any differences where salvation is concerned. There never was a general washing that covered all. Had there been then all would be alleviated from both if both were an actuality which they are not.

When the Pope speaks of them before Christ's coming as being personally saved he is of course quite correct, and that made sure by the blood shed at Calvary. But these were never in purgatory or any such imagined place. One cannot be righteous before God without having been saved by God which in their cases they were. By faith they all were in heaven. However not so them that never were made righteous and who in time rejected Messias. The curse and the Law still condemned them.

But, it is written that God has reserved for Himself a number from out of the twelve tribes who also will have the same revelation that us Gentiles have in our calling, so that right up until the last day Jews as well as Gentiles will take their places onto the vine that is the Lord Jesus Christ, or in other words become part of His body the elect which is called the Israel of God. Those that were not saved before they died are dead.

So, is Rome in error or is it much more serious than that? Well, Paul writes that anyone who introduces a gospel that is not the one given him by Jesus Christ is indeed preaching another gospel, another Jesus, another Spirit. The Gospel that Paul teaches is one of power and is seen to have power in the lives of those infected by it. It has one Lord, is of one faith and certainly led into truth by one Spirit which those that belong to it are not ashamed to display.

It believes the word of God as Jesus believed the word of God. It works to the glory of Jesus Christ not to any body that calls itself the church. Indeed it is written that it is the power of God unto salvation non-dependent on anything other than itself the message. And those whose lives have been changed by it are never ashamed to tell of the personal connection made by it to the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Carpathian Wolf]

How can that be? The Jews deny that Christ was the Son of God and the Logos. That leads directly to Hell, as Jesus said. What saves the Jews, then?

Between them and God.

[Monarchist]

Between them and God.

So are you saying that Christ is not the only avenue to salvation?

[Stavroforos]

The Roman Catholic Church used to be cooler / more believable before Vatican II.

[Zenith Darksea]

I think, on watching this video, that it is quite unfair to the Pope and that it does unfairly take his sayings out of context. I highly doubt that Benedict actually denies that Christ is God. These quotations that the narrator (who clearly has an emotive agenda) gives are misjudged, I think, and Benedict could probably have put his case a lot better. However, what it seems that Benedict was saying is that it is possible for an intelligent person to interpret the Old Testament in more than one way - which it is. As for all the stuff about Benedict teaching that Jews can be saved, there's nothing technically wrong with this - anyone can be saved, in accordance with God's wishes. And finally, that bit about Benedict 'taking part' in a Jewish worship service is ridiculously unfair - he is clearly spectating, not actually officiating.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a pro-Catholic, and I have many criticisms of the Catholic Church and of Pope Benedict. However, this video puts quite a lot of unfair spin on isolated quotations that could be quite reasonable when taken in their entire context. I'll admit that it is possible that Benedict was saying that he thinks that God favours the Jewish faith as well as the Christian one, but it seems equally possible, to me, that he was simply saying that, to an intelligent modern person, the Old Testament is technically open to the Jewish interpretation, even if it is wrong. And indeed this is usually the case with the Bible - that is why the Church Fathers advise that people read the Bible in the light of the Tradition of the Orthodox Church, not solely on their own personal interpretation.

Maybe the video is making a good point, and I'm open to that. But it seems like this might also be twisting Benedict's words somewhat.

[Stavroforos]

I'd say he's more like a toll-free highway.

[Carpathian Wolf]

I'm not saying that I disagree, i'm just saying that it isn't for me to say to someone "heaven isn't for you cause you don't believe in Christ." I myself just don't feel like I can say that.

[Dracula]

I'm not saying that I disagree, i'm just saying that it isn't for me to say to someone "heaven isn't for you cause you don't believe in Christ." I myself just don't feel like I can say that.

If the christian bishops and priests think the same, the christian faith is lost.

[SigniferOne]

I'm not saying that I disagree, i'm just saying that it isn't for me to say to someone "heaven isn't for you cause you don't believe in Christ." I myself just don't feel like I can say that.

What an abominable evasion. Then why teach Christianity?