After playing EB 1.2 a sugestion for EB II

[Hoplitai]

Yea, I agree. This mod is about really giving us the chance to accurately play all sorts of societies. If only there was infinite time and infinite factions slots the author of this posts ideas and that of our real objective could come together, but they cant. Your idea is best set to a more Rome or Med-Civilizations style mod. We want our barbarians, and accurately.

[Dargaron]

Yea, I agree. This mod is about really giving us the chance to accurately play all sorts of societies. If only there was infinite time and infinite factions slots the author of this posts ideas and that of our real objective could come together, but they cant. Your idea is best set to a more Rome or Med-Civilizations style mod. We want our barbarians, and accurately.

Wait, if there were infinite faction slots, then why would it be a good idea to remove barbarian factions? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding your point, but that doesn't seem to make sense to me.

[Supurbia In Proelio]

what attracted me to this mod was it's aim of re-creating the state of play in 272BC as accurately as possible. i love history and am currently studying for my degree, so to have a mod which places accuracy above all is refreshing (only been playing EB a month or so) and stimulating. i mean, the game teaches you things you didn't know every time you play it!

throwing this away would be a travesty, and i am glad the team are sticking to their guns.

roll on EBII!

[Hoplitai]

oh, cause the authors point was that he felt (not saying its correct) that there were so many tribes and cultures that came and went in Europe that there is no point in any of them being independent factions, rather barbarian Europe should just be a big rebel thing.

If there were infinite factions and time, we could equally represent all the appearing and disappearing tribes as we would not be limited in faction numbers. You could make every single barbarian tribal group and still have Europa Barbaroum (as opposed to taking them away) but because we cant, the modders have to just pick the most significant to represent the general cultures of the area

[Dago Red]

And on the end, to further improve my suggestion about unrest and civilization difference when conquering foreign, and especially barbarian regions. Unrest should be high and it should get higher every time when you build non native cultural/administrative building. But those building will decrease civilization difference and unrest will go down, just by passing of time. This will simulate gradual cultural assimilation of the region, and showing how difficult it would be....
Thanks.

That you will find in places like Ancient Empires if i recall... and is standard practice in ETW and it's mods, not that they help you with this timeframe. Try out AE for RTW. It is a great mod, and one that concentrates more on the classical civs - Rome, Greek successor states - from Greece to the western India, carthage, etc while still giving great play to "barbarian factions" from Thrace to Gaul.

I've got my eye on EB II for MTWII ... but I don't like they way some have responded to a well meaning person coming in here to make a suggestion, no matter how off base it may be from the mod's goal. Not necessary.

[Dargaron]

That you will find in places like Ancient Empires if i recall... and is standard practice in ETW and it's mods, not that they help you with this timeframe. Try out AE for RTW. It is a great mod, and one that concentrates more on the classical civs - Rome, Greek successor states - from Greece to the western India, carthage, etc while still giving great play to "barbarian factions" from Thrace to Gaul.

I've got my eye on EB II for MTWII ... but I don't like they way some have responded to a well meaning person coming in here to make a suggestion, no matter how off base it may be from the mod's goal. Not necessary.

Well, it seems, to me at least, pretty insulting that he assumed that the EB team had made "artificial states", without posting any information that this was so, effectively implying that the team's historical research was irrelevant. That was bound to raise some hairs, no matter what his suggestion was.

Also, it appears that the Original Poster didn't actually read much of the information about EB before posting, not even the FAQ, where it explains this very question.

Q: Why are the Gauls called Aedui / Arverni and the Germans called Sweboz?
A: In Europa Barbarorum, all factions are named as they named themselves in history. The Celts living in what is today France, never called themselves “Gauls”. They were in fact no united nation, they were a mixture of different Tribes.
The Aedui were one of the major tribes (ruling complete Gaul for a short time), who were opposed by the Arverni Federation. (For more Details please read “Gaius Julius Caesar: De Bello Gallico”)
The Sweboz were one of the bigger Germanic tribes, who possibly were able to unite all tribes (proudly represented by the Eleutheroi).
The same applies for Getai, Casse and Sauromatae.

So this suggestion is clearly made without much thought about what EB II intends to be, and is essentialy the antithesis of Europa Barbarorum.

[TheLastRemnant]

I only hope that they improve stability cause EB1.2 still crashes sometimes.

[Zarax]

Given that EB is almost 10 times the size of vanilla in scripting code some bugs will always be there, especially considering that the engine is pushed to its limits.

Bug fixing is a long and painful job, even projects much smaller than this can suffer from instability, especially if they do major changes to the game.

[Smeel]

talking about soap, who invented the single most successfull type of armor ever made... ah yes, the celts. such barbarians

[Callanor]

Hello there,

I am playing EB12 for some time now and i have some suggestions to improve the game and make ik more realistic.

- larger armies without the limit of 20 units;
- no retraining of damaged untis to full strength without loss of exprerience;
- lager towns (rome had far more inhabitans);
- decorations that can be earned bij units that improve morale;
- rebels within the factions (the reasons for factions to loose there power over time was the fact that factions fell apart due too internal rivals);
-

[Seleukos_I.]

Hello there,

I am playing EB12 for some time now and i have some suggestions to improve the game and make ik more realistic.

- larger armies without the limit of 20 units;
- no retraining of damaged untis to full strength without loss of exprerience;
- lager towns (rome had far more inhabitans);
- decorations that can be earned bij units that improve morale;
- rebels within the factions (the reasons for factions to loose there power over time was the fact that factions fell apart due too internal rivals);
-

1. not possible
2. not possible afaik
3. would suck a lot
4. ?
5. well there are the normal rebels. For a new faction like in BI you'd need an additional faction slot. But the team said they want to have all factions playable.

[Ludens]

I am playing EB12 for some time now and i have some suggestions to improve the game and make ik more realistic.

It would indeed, but those things are limited by the core engine of M2:TW, which cannot be modded (hard-coded is the technical term). The team would have to create their own game to be able to do that.

[ROFL Copter]

Play Europa Universalis Rome if you want that kind of game.

[4th Regiment]

No matter I have tried to explain this you continued in the same way. No way am I undermining “barbarians” as subhuman or something. Apart from Mediterranean, Europe was not organize in states = factions. Tribes are just too unstable sociological structures to be factions in the way it is represented in the game (centralized, organized long lasting development of nation). For God sake, are there any “Barbarian” diplomatic contract, state documents, library etc?

The most important thing I wrote thist is GAME PLAY. What is fun for example to play Britons and spend X turns in capturing rebel town after town in Brittan. Or Swaboz...Or in isolated southern tip of Arabic peninsula as Saba faction. Was there any realistic possibility that such an isolated faction could make empire coming across thousands kilometers of desert?

And no, I do not want to play Rome-centric mods, that was not the point of my post. This mod has great scripting, Barbarian buildings, units etc which give great flavor…but not playing those as “factions”. Read back what I have written.

Thanks

[Zarax]

EB has a very different view than yours, 4th regiment.
Years of work went into shaping what EB (and EB2) are so I'm afraid the game structure is not going to be changed that deeply.

Given your tastes, you might like more a mod like Diadochii: Total War, Extended Cultures or XGM

[Ludens]

No matter I have tried to explain this you continued in the same way. No way am I undermining “barbarians” as subhuman or something. Apart from Mediterranean, Europe was not organize in states = factions.

OK, that's true as far as it goes. But in reality the Mediterranean powers were still making the transition from tribe to state. For example, Hellenistic diplomatic treaties were between kings rather than states: as soon as one of the signers died, the treaty became invalid. You mention centralization and duration: the Aedui were governed by a central senate that had been fighting for a century or more against the Averni/Sequani confederacy.

What I am trying to say is that some of these barbarians were close to being a state, while many Mediterranean powers retained tribal characteristics. So I think the team is justified in including tribal coalitions, as long as can be shown that they were truly unified and, to a degree, centralized. EB's Greek city state faction, for the record, was less unified and lasted shorter than several of the team's barbarian coalitions.

And another thing: if the team is not allowed to use tribes as a factions, doesn't that mean dumping all barbarian factions apart from the Aedui and Averni? Because it would be even less realistic to replace them with generic "barbarian" factions.

For God sake, are there any “Barbarian” diplomatic contract, state documents, library etc?

Surviving, you mean? No, but then the Romans did wipe out all barbarian factions, bar the Germans, and those didn't write. Do we have such things for the Carthaginians? Because they did have a state apparatus similar to the Romans, but I seem to recall we don't have much in the way of records for them either.

[Moros]

Or take Saba', which was far removed from the centre of our mod's focus. We have lists of rulers spanning over more than 1400 years! In which it has almost been a completely contiuous and independent state. Okay some exception at the end, around 3rd century AD. But it was founded at least around 1200 BC. Though just as the Roman empire it did change at times in the way it was organised and led.

Edit: Yes, Saba was a confederation (well most of the time).

[Dargaron]

Wow, you guys were fast. I guess this is slightly redundent, but may as well post it. Here's some stuff to support Luden's point.

P.S. Started this around 2:00, but it got deleted by accident.

No matter I have tried to explain this you continued in the same way. No way am I undermining “barbarians” as subhuman or something. Apart from

Mediterranean, Europe was not organize in states = factions. Tribes are just too unstable sociological structures to be factions in the way it is represented in the game (centralized, organized long lasting development of nation). For God sake, are there any “Barbarian” diplomatic contract, state documents, library etc?

The most important thing I wrote thist is GAME PLAY. What is fun for example to play Britons and spend X turns in capturing rebel town after town in Brittan. Or Swaboz...Or in isolated southern tip of Arabic peninsula as Saba faction. Was there any realistic possibility that such an isolated faction could make empire coming across thousands kilometers of desert?

And no, I do not want to play Rome-centric mods, that was not the point of my post. This mod has great scripting, Barbarian buildings, units etc which give great flavor…but not playing those as “factions”. Read back what I have written.

Thanks

Actually, the Gauls at least were far from "unstable". Here some information from this book:
A Brief History of the Druids By Peter Berresford Ellis.

And I know that this guy uses Julius Caesar as his source, and Caeser is a somewhat unreliable source (if that), but this is the first historical citation in this thread, so hopefully it will suffice.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Caesar, in De Bello Gallico, Book VI, says that there were three classes in Gaul- the intellectuals called Druids (Druides), the military caste (Equites) (Dargaron note: I'm pretty sure Caesar was just using the latin term for the elite) and the people (Plebs), Here, Caesar accords the Druids their proper caste designationbut goes on, in effect, to describe a religious priesthood without naming them as such.
Of the Druids, Caesar says:
The Druids officiate at the worship of the gods, regulate public and private sacrifices, and give rulings on all religious questions. Large numbers of young men flock tothem for instruction, and they are held in great honor by the people. They act as judges in practically all disputes, whether between tribes or between individuals; when any crime is committed or a murder takes place, or a dispute arises about an inheritance or boundary, it is they who adjudicate the matter and appoint the compensation to be paid and received by the parties concerned. Any individual or tribe failing to accept their award is banned from taking part in sacrifice-the heaviest punishment that can be inflicted on any Gaul. Those who are under such a ban are regarded as impious criminals. Everyone shuns them and avoids going near or speaking to them, for fear of taking some harm by contact with what is unclean; if they appear as plaintiffs, justice is denied them, and they are excluded from a share in any honor.

He also describes how the Druids in Gaul were organized.

Dargaron note: If anyone wants this section typed in, I’ll edit my post. I’m not using this part for my point. Yet.

We shall later discuss references in Irish texts to a similar institution in Ireland.

Dargaron note: If anyone wants this section typed in, I’ll edit my post. I’m not using this part for my point. Yet.
References to Druidic collages or schools are also found in Irish tradition and this will be a subject for further discussion.
As to the social status of Druids, Caesar informs us that:

The Druids are exempt from military service and do not pay taxes like other citizens. (Dargaron note: there was a tax structure in Gaul, seems promising.) These important privileges are naturally attractive; many present themselves of their own accord to become students of Druidism, and others are sent by their parents and relatives. It is said that these people must remember a great number of verses – so many that some spend twenty years at their study. (Dargaron note: Impressive…)

One of the most important points which Caesar notes is the fact that:

The Druids believe that their religion forbids them to commit their teachings to writing, although for other purposes, such as public and private accounts, (Dargaron note: Public accounts? Like tax records and such? Seems promising.)the Gauls use the Greek alphabet. But I imagine that this rule was originally established for other reason – because they did not want their doctrine to become private property, and in order to prevent their pupils from relying on the written word and neglecting to train their memory; for it is usually found that when people have the help of texts, they are less diligent in learning by heart, and their memories rust.

A superficial interpretation and a misreading of Caesar’s comments has led many to claim that the ancient Celts were illiterate. However, examples of Gaulish, written in Greek and sometimes Latin alphabets survive in several areas and date back to the third century BC (Dargaron note: EB’s timeframe. Unfortunately, I probably can’t find translations of these texts on the internet, so I can’t tell you what they say.) Inscriptions in Cisalpine Gaul, such as the Todi, Briona and Saignon stones have now been carefully studied. For a long while, the intricate Calendar of Coligny, dating from the first century BC, was claimed as the earliest surviving extensive text in a Celtic language until the discovery of a leaden tablet in 1983 at La Vassiere, now called the Larzac Inscription, which was written in Latin cursive and was then acknowledged as the “longest known Gaulish text to date”, ascribed to the second or first centuries BC. Then in 1992 came yet another discovery, in northern Spain, of a Celtic text written on a bronze tablet. Modern scholars’ perception of the extent to which the Celts were literate has been changing rapidly and we shall return to this theme in a discussion on “Druidic Books”.

Also, in response to the points raised about the Casse and Sweboz, what chance is there that a small city state, in a peninsula riven with divisive peoples and tribes, could amount to anything? It’s not like it will go on to conquer the Mediterranean.
About a century or two before Europa Barbarorum’s starting date, Rome controlled a pitiful territory in central Italy, and expanded from there.

Here’s a source for that claim, from Historyworld.net.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Roman expansion in Italy: 5th - 4th century BC

Rome's military skill is a crucial element in the growth of her empire, but the start is decidedly slow. Her nearest rival is the Etruscan town of Veii, a mere 10 miles (16 km) to the northwest. Rome throws off the rule of the Etruscans in about 509, yet it takes more than a century of skirmishes between these two very close neighbours before Rome finally captures Veii in 396 BC.

The insecurity of Rome herself is dramatically demonstrated a few years later. The Romans find themselves helpless against Celtic tribesmen, marauding south through Italy in search of booty. In about 390 the Celts enter Rome and burn much of the city before departing north again.


From this low point in the early 4th century, the expansion of Roman power progresses more smoothly. An important element in this success is political. Victories on the battlefield are reinforced by settlements which give the defeated towns an involvement in the success of Rome.

The closeness of that involvement varies. Some of the nearby communities to the south, sharing the Latin language with the Romans, are granted full Roman citizenship. Other Latins have only a limited form of citizenship. More distant communities, of differing languages and cultures, are given the status of allies. They must supply troops or ships to support Rome, but they are left in charge of their own affairs.

Rome reinforces this network of alliances with a sound system of communication. In 312 the first of the great Roman roads, the Via Appia, is built by Appius Claudius to link Rome with an important new ally - the city of Capua, north of Naples.

Additional security is provided by small colonies planted at strategic places. In each of them 300 Roman families are settled in a walled encampment, becoming in effect a self-sufficient military outpost. Each family is given its own plot of land; the men are of an age to be liable for military conscription if still in Rome. One of the first colonies is established in about 400 BC at Ostia, defending the mouth of the Tiber.

And regarding Barbarian diplomats, here’s one from De Bello Gallico: Divitiacus, a chieftain of the Aedui, as well as a Druid with knowledge of Natural Philosophy. Here’s his credentials, from Marcus Ciciro:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The system of divination is not neglected even among barbaric peoples, since in fact there are Druids in Gaul; I myself knew one of them, Divitacus of the Aedui, your guest and eulogist, who declared that he was acquainted with the system of nature which the Greeks call Natural Philosophy and he used to predict the future by both augury and inference.

[Balbor]

M2TW allows for events to be linked to recruitment/conscruction, this should make things a lot easier i guess

[4th Regiment]

Did I say Saba is not a faction? No, of course, it was old kingdom, but too far and isolated, and wasting a faction slot there...

And what is that point about Gaul’s, Casse etc? Yes of course, they had druids and organized religion (people had that from dawn of stone age), yes they had some sorts of diplomacy (as every tribe had) but picking up one tribe among many, making faction, and spending X turns in siege after siege of rebel towns in surrounding area is not fun at all. Much better game play would be - using that “sea of barbarians” for some scripting and simulating barbarian invasions, tributes etc as I suggested in my first post. And that “what if one tribe has emerged and became strong state” theories… Well, that did NOT happened even after time frame of the mod, not to tell at beginning. Gaul were still bunch of disunited warring tribes when Cesar invaded, and Britain dissolved again into chaotic patchwork of tribes even after Romans left the Britain. It was simply not realistic history.

One more suggestion – is it possible (due to the hard coded limitations) that some of the tribal factions emerge some time after destruction of the existing factions (effectively taking free place instead of that destroyed faction). That would be later in the game, which will be more realistic and also would enhance game play, because in late game number of rebel territories is usually much reduced