Historical Roman formation

[Marcus Scaurus]

Hi,
I've just tested the historical Roman formation a few times. Hastati in front, Principes in middle and Triarii in the back. With about 1000 men I tried to fight 2500 men, their line was huge. Their falxmen advanced, but were defeated by my Hastati. While I was busy with commanding my cavalry, their falxmen routed, with my Hastati on their asses. I commanded to hold immediatly, but they were already too far. So I sent my Principes. Soon, my hastati fled, and the Principes began to waver (I think because the Hastati were routing). Unfortunatly, my cavalry couldn't flank the enemy, and Triarii soon found themselves outnumbered by enemy Chosen Swordmen and cavalry. So I lost the fight.

My conclusion is that the historical Roman formation sucks. It was very succesfull in real time, but RTW and real life battles were quite different. The battle described above was over in 15 minutes, but in real time it would last 15 hours. In these fight, the Hastati would fight an hour, then the Principes would come in, and the last reserves (Triarii) would fight cavalry or something. In RTW, the fleeing Hastati influenced the Principes. If I had one First Legionary Cohort as a strong unit in the center, I don't think the other units would flee.

[PyrrhusIV]

My friend, you are not supposed to let the hastati rout. If they are shaken or weakened, send in the principes. If the principes need help, send in the triarii, and you have to plan the cavalry charge just right. Also, did you have archers or Velites like the legions had back then?

EDIT: Also, falxmen are pretty tough units on the hastati. Historically the falx was a weapon which the roman legions hated. I have used the Manipular formation many times as the romans. It works great. Also, did you set the unit's, all of them including the Principes, to fire at will?

PyrrhusIV

[Jopo]

How does one ever lose with the Romans in that formation? The only thing I do differently is put units of Triari on the flanks to stop thier cavalry. Set the Hastati and Principies to gaurd mode and fire at will. Once out of Ammo, undo gaurd mode on hastati so they fight hard. Use the principes to hit any gaps and send them around the flanks. Use my cavalry and triarii to crush thier cavalry. Keep General close to get his moral boost on any wavering area and you will never lose. This is against barbarians and phalanx. Catafract and elephants are a different story but still easy.

[[HOJ]Honorius]

I will make some custom battle replays for you to study. The tactic works, but I believe your mistake was you disengaged your formation too soon. If you can tell me what each side as units, I can better represent the same battle.

[Scorch]

Interesting experiment. However I think RTW makes it difficult to simulate fights historically.

[[HOJ]Honorius]

Here is a version 1.2 replay showing the romand maniple line up

VHVHVHVH
P_P_P_P_P
TTTTTTTT =only 4 units stretched out

V = Velites, skirmish, fire at will (4 units)
H = Hastati, guard mode, fire at will (4 units)
P = Principe, guard mode, fire at will (4 units)
T = Trarii, guard mode (4 units)

3 Equite plus one general

Then I have cavalry on the flanks, no big woop.

Here is the replay file: here

Let me know what else I can help you with.

[ShangTang]

What I do is when I notice a unit of hastati being weakened I march the principes behind them into the fray. Then retreat the hastati out when the principes have picked up the slack. Usually works very well.

[MasterCommander]

my formation is:


h h h
Cav p p p p Cav
{G}

[[HOJ]Honorius]

Mainly the RTW it works in RTW, is that charge bonus really weakens the enemy. Like on my replay, there are holes in the front line, and when i send troops charging through the gaps, the already engaged enemy almost always rout, of course this may change when the battle difficulty is fixed.

[Flogger]

I use that formation for Romans all the time! 2 medium-large stacks of Gauls all attacked me in one turn (this is using RTR 6.2 by the way) and they never stood a chance!
What I do is first put the velites at the front, on fire at will, guard* and skirmish. When they retreat back behind my Triarii they keep on firing, but are taken off of skirmish mode. Once they run out of javelins, they are taken off fire at will and are used as my last-chance reserve unit.
Now, back to my Hastati in the front line. They are on guard and off fire at will. The Princepes behing are on guard and fire at will. Once I get enough of a break (when most of the enemy is routing) I move my Princepes up in front of the tired Hastati, take them off fire at will and put my hastati on fire at will. Take the cavalry round the back and wham! Chosen swordsmen are routing. I was using ballistas in those particular battles. They help a bit too.
And during all of this, the Triarii are usually just standing there watching. Why can't they do something useful like throw pila?

*In fact, I put all my units on guard except cavalry. Stops them running after the enemy and getting themselves killed-ecspecially if they are used as infantry reserve

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

This roman formation is perfect against barbarians. Usually they will form a thin, large line and advance towards you; I put my velites on the front and disabled skirmish mode, my hastati and principes in guard mode and the principes in fire at will mode. As the barbarians advanced they were severely hurt by the javelins. Then the stupid AI Warlord would always throw himself in the center of my line to catch the velites, so I attacked him with all my equites, trarii and general and killed him. Meanwhile the hastati were fighting and the principes have spent all their pila, so I attacked with them. My equites and general drove out the skirmishers and turned back attacking the rear of the enemy units, pursuing them and preventing them from rallying. If there was any unit still fighting I would simply attack with all my infantry until they were all running. I got two heroic victories against Gaul and Dacia.

Edit: Thanks, Flogger. A great idea not only for RTR but also for vanilla !

[Sidus Preclarum]

My conclusion is that the historical Roman formation sucks. It was very succesfull in real time, but RTW and real life battles were quite different..

it wasn't *that* successfull irl either...
But I think it worls ok in game : the big difficulty is holding your troops, so that they don't get isolated, and can be withdrawn behind the other line to recollect, like ShangTang does...

[Decimus Equitius]

I believe your fault on the battle was that you waited too long to send in your principes. They be should be sent in as soon as they are out of pila. And your flank should hit them at around the same time your Prinicpes hit them. I personally don't use Triarii in the back but on the sides to help with the flank and take care of the horses.

[backman]

My formation in Vanilla RTW 1.5 (works fine to me):

T H H H H T
--P P P P--
----VV----
----AA----
C--GBG--C

T= Triarii
H= Hastatii
P= Princeps
V= Velites
A= Archers
C= Cavalry
GBG= General Bodyguard

[Jamieus Maximus Pillockus]

The real early roman tactics (pre-marius) were exactly like Red Baron said. But when browsing wikipedia i found an interesting variation that uses the same key principle as Red's but the troops are laid out slightly differently, the formation was called Quincunx (no nothin to do with nvidia lol). The formation looks like this with velites or peltists at front who will launch all manners of harm towards the marching enemy, and then would retreat:
H H H H
P P P
T T T T
Its worth lookin at this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_i...tle_formations

[Flavius Silvanus]

Post-Marius, what formations do people use?

Is there an easy way to get your Legionaries into the checkerbox formation?

Also my Spearmen Auxillia seem to take a real pounding from cavalry, and they seem to take the heaviest casualties of any of my units. Is there a rule for setting them effectively against cavalry?

[MarcustheAuxillary]

I remember reading a book a while back that said the Roman Line up (after the Marian Reforms) went something like this.

Key
L = Legionaries
FC = First Cohort
A = Auxilia
C = Cavalry
TC = Top Commanders
R = Reserves

Scale
One L = 100 Men
FC = 800 Men
A = 160 Men
C = 100 Men
TC = Around 8 Men
R = 100 Men

Note: The Top Commanders did not include the General. The Top Commanders were people from rich families.
The First Cohort consisted of 800 men (5 double centuries of the best troops)

___________________________________________________________________

TC
C RRRRRRRR C
RRRRRRRR

LLLL
AAAAAAAAAA LLLL AAAAAAAAAA

EnemyEnemyEnemyEnemyEnemyEnemyEnemyEnemyEnemyEnemyEnemyEnemy
___________________________________________________________________

Obviously this probably couldn't work in R:TW, but i wonder if someone who has Commanding skill in-game could come up with something similar to it?