Ceuta

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

Someone had to bring it up. I did not particularly wish to do it myself, but here we go.

Wiki on Ceuta

For those not do not know what Ceuta is, it is a small part of the tip of Morroco. It has been Spanish since the 15th century, and its populace wish it to remain so (something which I fully support them in, incidentally).



Now, the parallels between this situation and that of Gibraltar are, frankly, incredible. Ceuta is somewhat larger than Gibraltar, of course, but otherwise the situation is roughly the same. Spain took the area from the Moors, and failed to hand it back. I say that it is long in the past, and should be forgetten about.

HOWEVER, I must ask any Spaniards (or others) advocating that Gibraltar secede (contrary to the wishes of her people): Is it fair that Gibraltar should have to join Spain, while Ceuta may remain in Spanish possession unchallenged? The Moroccan government ask for it back as least as often as the Spaniards do Gibraltar. Why do the Spaniards so vehemently defend the fruits of their imperial loins whilst wishing the far more recent fruits of a competitor's imperialism "returned"? Should it not adopt a single stance, and stick with it? Either ask for Gibraltar and surrender Ceuta, or shut up.

That is all I have to say. What is the popular TWC sentiment?

[Poach]

LordKain will soon show up with his "ja" spam and claim it has something to do with inheritance of the Monarchy, not inheritance from the state of Spain, and since Morocco wasn't a state in those days they can keep Cueta but we can't keep Gibraltar.

A ridiculous argument, in my opinion, but I'm a greedy imperialist Brit so I really should think that anyway.

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

Double standards is the issue here, not what the standards are. Whatever standard you pick, progressive or archaic, at least be consistent with it... that's how I see the matter, anyway.

[Didz]

Here! Here! old chap. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander what!

[Poach]

Hello again Poach!!! Do you miss me??? JAJAJA

I did! You amuse me. Took your time getting here though!

Eb: We're (or rather, I'm) not here to argue that Spanish citizens gather on the streets daily to demand the return of Gibraltar. This thread came to be as a result of a few Spanish Nationalists in the thread already listed trying to make it sound like Spanish citizens gather daily to demand Gibraltar back.

[eldaran]

I don't think I'd be far off the mark in saying that I suspect a majority of both British and Spanish nationals would happily let the populations of Gibraltar/Ceuta 'rejoin' whatever country it is some people think they should be part of, if the the people there support it. As it is, the people in Gibraltar dont want to be Spanish and I imagine the people of Ceuta would be hard pressed to find a reason why they would want to be Moroccan.

There will in each country be a minority that for whatever reason wont agree with this. There will be British people that will probably think Ceuta should be given to Morocco but the UK should keep Gibraltar. Likewise some Spaniards will think that the UK should hand over Gibraltar but Spain should keep Ceuta. C'est la vie I say, we all know neither is ever going to happen.

Personally, im all for these little 'enclaves', Gibraltar certainly is a fascinating place to visit, such a complete mix of British and Spanish culture - it's very weird hearing someone start having a conversation in English, then switch to Spanish, or have one person speaking English and the other Spanish!

[emperorpenguin]

Don't forget Melilla http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla



or Olivenza http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivenza

[Ahiga]

Nationalism and acting in the interests of one's own state will quite naturally and obviously follow a flexible idea of logic and thought process that does not seek to hurt its own well being.

In other words: Any Spaniard worth his salt will deny giving away Ceuta but support gaining Gibraltar. Any British worth his salt will deny giving away Gibraltar and may or may not support giving away Ceuta.

As an outside observer, I say let Spain keep Ceuta and GB keep Gibraltar.

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

Nationalism and acting in the interests of one's own state will quite naturally and obviously follow a flexible idea of logic and thought process that does not seek to hurt its own well being.

In other words: Any Spaniard worth his salt will deny giving away Ceuta but support gaining Gibraltar. Any British worth his salt will deny giving away Gibraltar and may or may not support giving away Ceuta.

As an outside observer, I say let Spain keep Ceuta and GB keep Gibraltar.

I agree completely. I am not "judging" Spain for keeping Ceuta, merely commenting on the fact that they should at least make some affectation of consistency when demanding the "return" of Gibraltar.

[Lance-Corporal Jones]

Not to mention Melilla, in the Rif. Double standards at their best.

[Poach]

Not entirely true, Ahiga. I am British and I do support retaining Gibraltar but only because they want us to. If the people of Gibraltar didn't want to be British and had made that clear in a vote I'd be all in favour of letting them go, partly because it wouldn't be fair to keep tham and partly because they'd only cause trouble.

[Didz]

Like Poach, I'm British but I would happily hand over Gibraltar to Spain if its population wished it. On the other hand I would support fighting to keep it if its population wanted to remain British. That policy was established clearly in the case of the Falklands and I see no need to change it now.

Likewise, if the Scottish people voted in favour of independance I'd say, let them have it and good luck to them. I don't think Britain should be a nation of reluctant subjects. If people don't appreciate the benefits of being British then why would want them anyway.

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

Like Poach, I'm British but I would happily hand over Gibraltar to Spain if its population wished it. On the other hand I would support fighting to keep it if its population wanted to remain British. That policy was established clearly in the case of the Falklands and I see no need to change it now.

Likewise, if the Scottish people voted in favour of independance I'd say, let them have it and good luck to them. I don't think Britain should be a nation of reluctant subjects. If people don't appreciate the benefits of being British then why would want them anyway.

Year Britain started being a nation of reluctant subjects: 1707.

Even before then, the conquests of Longshanks hardly brought widespread jubilation. And then, of course, we had the empire. Despite being the country that more or less invented the idea of rule by consent, we are not very good at enforcing it where "Johnny Foreigner" is concerned!

[Ahiga]

Not entirely true, Ahiga. I am British and I do support retaining Gibraltar but only because they want us to. If the people of Gibraltar didn't want to be British and had made that clear in a vote I'd be all in favour of letting them go, partly because it wouldn't be fair to keep tham and partly because they'd only cause trouble.

You may be an exception to the rule in such level-headedness though, Poach. I'm not judging the British with an arrogant eye in the regard because I am pretty much the same way when it comes to the United States, and I imagine most people are the same way about their respective nations. Land is a finite resource and we can attach a lot of emotions to maintaining control over it.

Being consistent can be rather difficult, though. I have an immense hatred of balkanization and sectarianism based on petty local lines, yet I have a sympathy for the Confederacy to some degree (not on slavery but on not wishing the Federal Government had all the authority and dominance over the states). Likewise, where I fiercely support the Turks against Greek & Hellenophile desires to retrieve Constantinople, the Hagia Sophia, or Western Anatolia, I have to try and maintain that consistency when it comes to China and Tibet/Xinjiang.

Likewise, if I or someone else supported GB keeping Gibraltar but wanted Spain to give back Ceuta (much as I like Moroccan history or culture, it is kind of crazy for anyone of a Western, Judeo-Christian background to wish a people to be under an Islamic constitutional monarchy instead of a Christian/Secular republican monarchy. Morocco is certainly one of the better/best Islamic Governments and societies to live in, but I'd still prefer to be under Spanish law than Moroccan), that'd be rather..silly.

[Lord Consul]

Spain, the country to which Gibraltar would be given, is a wealthy Western democracy. Ceuta, in the other hand, would be reclaimed by... Morocco. So, I do think that citizens of Ceuta have a considerably more legitimate reason to remain as an exclave than, say, Gibraltar.

[Poach]

Who the land goes to is besides the point, Lord Consul. This is purely a territorial rights question and whether one is being a hypocrite if, as the example in the question asks, one is of the opinion that Gibraltar should be returned to Spain because the land once belonged to the Spainards but at the same time contends that Cueta and Melilla should remain Spanish because they conquered them fairly.

I, ofcourse, hold the opinion that the above position (held by, for example, LordKain. His arguments can be viewed in another threat concerning Gibraltar) is extremely hypocritical and, as stated, hold the opinion that the land should go to whomever the inhabitants of the enclaves wish to be governed by.

[Stavroforos]

The comparison is only valid if the condition by which the territories are being held is similar.

Gibraltar is being held by the British due to the treaty signed with the Spaniards in which they ceded it. Does Spain have a similar treaty by which it has the "Moroccan" lands under its possession?

edit: Even a treaty at this point is irrelevant, considering Spain has held it since the 15th Century. Not a comparable situation, IMO.

[Didz]

But still the over-riding principle in all cases is whether the citisens themselves wish to remain a part of their current nation. If the citisens of Gibralter wished to return to Spanish rule then I'm sure Britain would honour that wish, likewise if the citisens of Ceuta wished to return to Morroccan rule Spain ought to honour that wish.

[Ebusitanus]

But still the over-riding principle in all cases is whether the citisens themselves wish to remain a part of their current nation. If the citisens of Gibralter wished to return to Spanish rule then I'm sure Britain would honour that wish, likewise if the citisens of Ceuta wished to return to Morroccan rule Spain ought to honour that wish.

First things first...Spain does not demand any return..ok? ..understood?..for the tenth time already this week? I know you people love to paint your opposition to your taste but in this case its simply not true.

Spain vs the Gibraltar question: The signed treaty of Utrech rules the relations. Spain gets the rock, via the treaty, if and only if the UK decides so. Full stop. Spain has, through the treaty, first pick when the UK decides to leave the rock. Gibraltarians, very aware of the route the EU is going in regards to fiscal and smuggling paradises within the EU tries desperately to hold on to what makes them special beyond the rest of neighboring Spanish coastal towns. Besides that its only minor issues like the coastal waters (to which, through treaty, Gibraltar has only her harbor and which Gibraltar chooses not to respect), the smugling, drug traffic, money laundering, airport use, etc...

There is no movement in Spain towards having this stupid rock within our lifetimes. Spain only gets involved when steps are being taken to disrespect the terms of the treaty such as selfgovernance, breaking the territorial waters thing, the criminal gangs, etc...

I keep reading how the population does not want to go back, etc...The population of Gibraltar is in complete minority of Spanish descent. The overwhelming majority of dwellers were imported by Britain in the XVII and XVIII centuries from other brit holdings such as Malta and other Italian states that had deals with the UK such as Genova. The original dwellers live across the border where they moved after the Brit take over. Besides obvious economical incentives that gives this place its special status as fiscal and criminal heaven under UK protection, what reason would they ever have of being Spanish subjects? No common history, no common language or ethnic origin..plus, they would become a boring run of the mill sleepy harbor if things were to change.

It has nothing to do with Spain sitting behind a tree just waiting to pounce upon the rock. It does not makes us loose any sleep at all.

Spain vs Ceuta: Taken from the Portuguese who took it in the early 1400´s I believe. Back in the days Spain ruled over quite much more land there and had also settled it. With the turning over of the protectorate to Morroco, most of these people retreated back into these two enclaves. Not sure of current numbers but both places are as morrocan ethnically as spanish are the gibraltarians.

The main difference is that there was never any treaty signed with Morroco over these lands and an eventual "return" (Not that the political entity Morroco ever owned those places to begin with). Hong Kong had a treaty, a binding treaty, that went over the wishes of its millions of inhabitants who had cheered on her Majesty the Queen not so long ago. Spain´s relations and claims towards Gibraltar lie exclusively on the terms of the treaty signed which are inequivocal. Spain adheres to the letter of the treaty and only intervenes when its terms get hurt. Ceuta, besides the majority wish of its population, has for REAL no other claim upon her that the geographical one that UK apologists here keep saying Spain uses in regards to the rock.

My feelings towards both places are quite in line how most anglos here state towards Gibraltar. Are there binding contracts? No. In this case let the population decide or lets write up precisely such a treaty with Morroco

Ironically the Kingdom of Navarre has been less time Spanish than Ceuta Maybe the french would also want to lay claim?

[removeduser_487563287433]

First things first...Spain does not demand any return..ok? ..understood?..for the tenth time already this week? I know you people love to paint your opposition to your taste but in this case its simply not true.

Um, yes it does. Spain claims Gibraltar and reclaimation of the Rock remains Government policy. In pursuing this the Spanish Government has spent the last half a century attacking the Gibraltans with various restrictions of movement and communication.