Cumans vs Mongols

[Malin]

Recently, after a pretty succesful Hungarian campaign, I wanted to try out a 'hard' faction, so I went with the cumans. Everything went nice and pretty, aside from the really poor economy, I didn't find the cumans to be a hard faction to play with. Up until the mongol invasion... I expected them to be hard to fight, as they mostly use cavalry too, but wow... I just can't do anything against them. They're HA's are much better in attack, defense, even in speed and numbers, the melee cavalry just sweep through my units, so all in all, I can't stop them. Already losed Embi and Jaiksk to them, and they're still coming, so.. I would appreciate any help from the wise tactician's here.

Edit.: I tried to ally with them, but they broke it in 2 turns, and I have no money to give them either.

[Navajo Joe]

Recently, after a pretty succesful Hungarian campaign, I wanted to try out a 'hard' faction, so I went with the cumans. Everything went nice and pretty, aside from the really poor economy, I didn't find the cumans to be a hard faction to play with. Up until the mongol invasion... I expected them to be hard to fight, as they mostly use cavalry too, but wow... I just can't do anything against them. They're HA's are much better in attack, defense, even in speed and numbers, the melee cavalry just sweep through my units, so all in all, I can't stop them. Already losed Embi and Jaiksk to them, and they're still coming, so.. I would appreciate any help from the wise tactician's here.

Edit.: I tried to ally with them, but they broke it in 2 turns, and I have no money to give them either.

Malin,
Know what you mean, the Mongols are jolly deadly, under no situation allow them a wide open battlefield, they will use those Mounted Archers to best effect. You need to choose the battlefield, high ground, mountain pass, a bridge, anywhere you can create a bottleneck, so they can funnel into a killing zone. Don't be frightened to let them siege you, they cannot use their firepower against you and with spearmen you can kill them at the gate or the street.
If you use your Mangonels and Trebuchets in these bottlenecks the results are devastating!

The most effective anti Mongol unit I found, although not available to you sadly, are Elephant Mercenaries, they eat those Lancers up! As I am sure you remember from RTW, horses don't like elephants. As the Mongols don't bring mice with them, the elephants don't freak!

[RollingWave]

Cumans are one of the worest factions to face off the Mongols against, because your strength = their strength , except that they're even better. and the best way to deal with them (siege defense) happens to be your biggest weakness too.

Either way though, your stuck, the only real solution is hopfully by now you have a few fortress or large cities with ballista towers. and pack them full with whatever infantry you can field and hopefully a good general. try to fight a battle of attrition and hope they lose enough at the walls.

that, and try to create a larger strategic depth (say.. conquer your way up to the baltics) so you can give some room for them.

[Malin]

Thanks for the tips guys, in the meanwhile, I gave them Azaq (my poorest town) for an alliance, and the relations from very poor went to amiable, so I hope they'll leave me alone for a while. If they don't, I'll try to buy Turku from Novgorod, and hold out there... Regarding the defenses, I don't have ballista towers anywhere, and most of my forces are on the west fighting the rus. I hope that RR/RC update, in which the cumans get a buff, will be out soon.

[Massive_attack]

Honestly, in my games, cumans vs anything = epic failiure for the cumans.

So yeah, against the mongols... your in trouble.

The difficulty is preety much what defines the experience of that faction, lol.

[JorisofHolland]

It's really sad you don't have any infantry, as that's the best way to crush them.
To avoid this problem, just migrate westward like your live depends on it (believe me, it does ), then allow other nations (lets say: the Rus/Kwarezmian) to take the settlements you left (from the rebels that will appear) or sell it to them in exchange for something valuable. That way, you'll never be facing the Mongols before they are weakened enough to face them.

[Vaz]

Ally with Kwarz, and give them your eastern most cities and fortresses (except a couple of your most powerful - Tumturakan, if you can take it from the Kievans if one of the best, as they can only get a few armies to you.

Migrate West at the same time. By the time you get Noble Horse Archers, it's time to start picking off lone armies and cities. If you play with Muslim Mongolians, then you can also Cold War on them - Spies, Assassins, Merchants etc.

[Malin]

Well, right now, things are going pretty well, I managed to capture two cities from the rus, money's flowing again, and most importantly, the mongols aren't picking on me. I just sent a spy to check them out, and they're currently steamrolling the khwarezms on the south. If it will continue like this, they'll soon meet the romans, whom are currently the biggest empire (they conquered all anatolia, vassalised the pope, etc. ), and an epic war will begin... Go romans!

[RollingWave]

Cumans in 6.1 were awesome really , because you can build the long range missile cuman HA from the basic temple. which is by far the best basic unit anyone can build. so they're like the perfect blitz faction. just pack a general with some HAs and charge forward. nothing in the early era can stop you really. I basically blew my way strait to the baltics sea on H/H with nothing but 2 full stacks of Cuman HA and never even came close to losing a single engagement.

They would have more problem against very high level armors sure. but by then you should have better heavy cavalries yourself anyway. the key is that you can use your cuman HA to utterly annihiliate any light units they bring along, leaving the heavies completely stuck and unsupported. then you can either just run circles around them until they exhaust or if they refuse to move just charge and run until they break.

it's a lot more problematic in 6.2 RC 1.3 because for some reason they changed the the basic temple units to Pechangs , which is a close bow HA, they hit harder and are more effective against heavier units yes, but for general purpose speaking range >>>> damage.

[Point Blank]

Higher level temples give better HA units in next update.

[Callawyn]

Don't neglect to go after them strategically. As they expand, slip armies into their rear areas to recapture provinces. Use spies to illuminate so your armies don't get any nasty surprises. The AI is brain dead, take advantage of it. Keep a couple of fleets handy on the Caspian to ferry your armies.

[JorisofHolland]

Of course, I shouldn't have forgotten that. It will distract them (slow expansion) and cost them money due to your economic warfare.

[DeliCiousTZM]

Keyword is Bridges use the bridges and make sure u get some balistas and catapults to hold them real good and easy sacrifice the border provinces its a small price to pay.

[JorisofHolland]

To use bridges to your advantage, you should have many archers (you probably have those), strong spearmen and infantry (you probably don't have those )

[Malin]

Yeah, the only spearmen currently available to me are the tatar lancers, (infantry are dismounted militia, but those aren't even really worth mentioning ), which aren't that good sadly.. To be honest, I abandoned my cuman campaign a while ago, 'cause spamming HA's constantly got boring after awhile. Currently struggling with a KoJ campaign on hard, it's pretty intense.

[JorisofHolland]

Well IF you have to fight the Golden Horde you'll have the right troops.

[Malin]

Only IF I survive long enough to see the Mongols, this jihad here has gone from a small annoyance to a big problem... I'm starting to get off-topic.

[Vaz]

Only IF I survive long enough to see the Mongols, this jihad here has gone from a small annoyance to a big problem... I'm starting to get off-topic.

Where is the Jihad heading? If it's Jerusalem, there is sometimes a Mercenery ship used to transport a little way up the inland lake, and that keeps a Jihad going on occasion.

[meese]

Off-topic in your own thread? You're terrible!

The good news is that once you get a hold on your current territory, you should be able to retake the holy land with your better units. Eh..do the old defend with mangonels trick

[JorisofHolland]

Or just call a crusade, that'll distract them long enough. Join, but don't conquer. The new "crusader state" will give the Fatimads something to think about, whilst the free upkeep has brought you enough wealth to deploy some good armies (knights) and make sure their lack of armour will defeat them.