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  1. #1

    Default Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    KABUL – Afghan President Hamid Karzai said Thursday he's willing to talk with the Taliban chief in a bid to bring peace to the country if the move has the backing of the United States and other international partners.
    Karzai had previously offered to talk with Taliban leader Mullah Omar, but the Bush administration opposed such contacts. President Barack Obama has said the U.S. must "open the door" to Taliban members who abandon violence.


    Karzai's interview, which took place in the presidential palace, was his first since Obama announced a new strategy for Afghanistan, including sending 30,000 U.S. reinforcements to combat the growing Taliban insurgency. Obama said in his Tuesday address if all went well, the U.S. could begin withdrawing troops in July 2011.


    The Afghan leader said he was not upset by the July 2011 date because it would give an "impetus and a boost" for Afghans to work toward taking control of their own nation. He also said it was time to offer peace to Taliban members and end the insurgency.


    "We must talk to the Taliban as an Afghan necessity. The fight against terrorism and extremism cannot be won by fighting alone," Karzai said. "Personally, I would definitely talk to Mullah Omar. Whatever it takes to bring peace to Afghanistan, I, as the Afghan president, will do it."


    But Karzai said the effort must have the full backing of the United States and its international partners. He said "sections of the international community" had undermined previous peace overtures by harassing former Taliban members "even though they had quit the insurgency."
    He offered no examples.


    Karzai offered to negotiate directly with Omar in November 2008, promising to provide security for the Taliban leader if he was "willing to come to Afghanistan or to negotiate for peace." The Taliban said at the time they would not enter into any negotiations as long as international forces were still in Afghanistan — a stance the group has held to since.
    Omar disappeared after the collapse of the Taliban regime in November 2001 and has been rumored to be living in Pakistan, a charge the Pakistani government denies.


    In Washington, a senior U.S. official declined to comment on the reported offer but noted the Obama administration wanted the Afghan government to pursue reconciliation.


    "Obviously, being part of the reconciliation process requires recognizing the Afghan government, renouncing violence and becoming a part of the political process," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the issue is sensitive. "We have not seen him (Mullah Omar) give any indication that he is willing to join a peaceful and democratic process."
    In Brussels, Belgium, U.S. special envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, said reconciliation talks had been "on the backburner" but were now "moving to the frontburner.


    "There's an open door for any people fighting with the Taliban to renounce al-Qaida, lay down their arms and are processed peacefully," Holbrooke said. "But let me be clear, this takes a little time. It has to be Afghan-led and it requires resources."


    During the interview, Karzai appeared relaxed and confident, displaying an air of independence despite intense U.S. and international pressure to crack down on corruption and improve governance following this summer's contentious election that gave him a second term.


    Karzai demanded the respect of Western leaders and defended the election, which U.N.-backed auditors said was tarnished by widespread fraud. He accused Western politicians and media of insulting him, his administration "and the Afghan people" by their repeated allegations of vote fraud.


    He said the election was not fraudulent and any corruption that occurred was not the work of Afghans.


    "The Afghan elections were the best under the circumstances," he said. "We had no security in the south of the country. European observers called for the elections to be canceled even before the votes were counted."
    He said the prospect of a U.S. military drawdown caused him no alarm.
    "For Afghans, it's good that we are facing a deadline. We must begin to stand on our own feet. Even if it is with our own meager means — whatever those means may be. And we must begin to defend our own country. And if we, the Afghan people, cannot defend our country, ourselves, against an aggressor from within or without, then no matter what the rest of the world does with us, it will not produce the desired results," he said.


    So does anyone see this as mere rhetoric or is this guy actually serious about bringing any kind of concession to the table in order to negotiate deals or even a ceasefire with the Taliban?
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  2. #2

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    What happened to not negotiating with terrorists?

    Amnesty for those who surrender, sure. But all out negotiations with the Taliban makes me feel a little sick.

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  3. #3
    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Quote Originally Posted by Justinian View Post
    What happened to not negotiating with terrorists?

    Amnesty for those who surrender, sure. But all out negotiations with the Taliban makes me feel a little sick.

    I think the war carrying on for another 10 or so years (Which will be the outcome unless we negotiate with the Taliban) makes me feel even more sick
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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Quote Originally Posted by Justinian View Post
    What happened to not negotiating with terrorists?
    1) Taliban =/= terrorist

    2) That was the Chimp in Chief, America has a president with a brain now.



  5. #5

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Eh, Afghanistan will eventually do what it wants with the Taliban, whether that happens before we leave or after.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    You cannot persuade the enemy to negotiate while he is winning

  7. #7
    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPirate View Post
    You cannot persuade the enemy to negotiate while he is winning
    They are only winning in the eyes of the media. It is a bit more complex than that. Most of what is said, is conjecture. A war like this, there is very little that is definitive. What you can say, is that the 'Taliban' holds more ground than NATO, but that doesn't really stop us from going anywhere we please.

    The Taliban would like you to believe that a war of attrition is beneficial to them, that ultimately, they outlast us. Unfortunately, Islamist insurgencies have some largely unique characteristics, that have historically led to the drying up of the popular support they rely on. In this case, they really never had any popular support. This massive turn towards the Taliban, hasn't happened. And there was very little evidence that it would, outside of the Afghanistan literay circle, where mental :wub: is the rule.

    Fact is, they are losing support, their outside revenue sources are slowing to a trickle, and even the opium trade is now being targeted fairly heavily, by the same people who went after the cocaine trade in Columbia. It is costing them more and more to do business, and they are bringing less in. And that is the name of the game. In Columbia we went after the leadership, we fostered a lot of internal distrust through our actions, and we destroyed enough product to make the shrinking profit, not worth the risk. With the inclusion of the DEA, it is obvious there isn't going to be any large crop eradication program. It is going to be a counter narcotics campaign.

    Recruitment is also down, and people tend to forget, that while the Pakistan and Afghan Taliban operate independently in some respects, they are also highly symbiotic, and are being squeezed in multiple ways. And they know all too well that time is not on their side. AQ specifically, has been eying other places to set up shop, for some time. Eastern Syria, Northern Africa, etc. They are not going to put their eggs in one basket, again.
    Last edited by mrmouth; December 09, 2009 at 10:22 AM.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    I couldn't care less if the Taliban was allowed control over the Pashtun regions of Afghanistan, so long as international Jihadist groups aren't allowed to set up base again. Omar though, is notoriously unreliable when it comes to making deals.

  9. #9
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Taliban =/= terrorist
    Uh...
    Taliban militants, who have made tribal areas as their base camp, have threatened more terrorist attacks on the pattern of Islamabad blast in which several Americans were injured.
    http://www.nowpublic.com/world/talib...rorist-attacks
    A suicide bomber has killed 19 Pakistanis and wounded 50 more in an attack outside the Peshawar judicial complex. The strike is the latest in the Taliban's suicide campaign that has recently zeroed in on the provincial capital.

    Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/11/suicide_bomber_kills_20.php#ixzz0YfKLptOO

    A suicide car bomber detonated his vehicle outside the Indian Embassy in the bustling center of the Afghan capital Thursday, killing 17 people in the second major attack in the city in less than a month. The Afghan Foreign Ministry hinted at Pakistani involvement - a charge Pakistan denied.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5370573.shtml

    In the latest wave of violence, the Taliban insurgents targeted several government buildings including the Justice Ministry Wednesday morning, killing 20 people and wounding 57 others, Minister for Interior Mohammad Hanif Atmar said.



    Later the same day, at least 20 people are killed and 20 others injured when a bomb attached to a motorcycle explodes at a playground where hundreds of people were gathered for a festival in Spin Boldak, bordering Pakistan.



    A suicide bomber attacks a crowded market in an Afghan town just a few hundred meters from where the U.S. ambassador was meeting with local leaders. Ten Afghans were killed and 50 wounded.



    A suicide attack rocks the famous blue mosque of Afghanistan's northern Balkh Province but did not cause serious injuries.



    A suicide bomb attack injures three civilians in the southern Kandahar Province.


    An attacker reportedly dressed in a police uniform detonates a bomb at the entrance to a mosque at a funeral for a slain anti-Taliban cleric, killing 19 and injuring 52, including Kabul's police chief.


    Last edited by s.rwitt; December 03, 2009 at 04:06 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    It's not technically up to us what the Afghan government wants to do with it.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  11. #11

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Uh...
    The point is not whether the Taliban uses terrorist tactics or not, its whether they are a threat to the US and her allies. I mean the French Resistance used terror tactics but that didn't make them "bad guys".

    The Taliban is at war to regain its control of the Afghan government and the pashtun regions of and Pakistan. Their methods are incredibly brutal, but they are not in any way an international Jihadist group.

    The Taliban has never shown any desire for influence outside of their home territory, as it is made up mainly of poor rural Pashtun's. The problem has always been their relationship with Al Qaeda, which definitely is a an international Jihadist group made up of rich Arabs from the Gulf States who don't get enough pussy and have a serious inferiority complex. They are the ones that threaten our security, and we should never lose sight of that.

    If it were possible to know for sure that the Taliban would be forever divorced from these groups, I wouldn't mind leaving southern Afghanistan to them. It's not our job to bring backward nations into the 21st century.
    Last edited by Sphere; December 03, 2009 at 09:32 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    The point is not whether the Taliban uses terrorist tactics or not, its whether they are a threat to the US and her allies. I mean the French Resistance used terror tactics but that didn't make them "bad guys".

    The Taliban is at war to regain its control of the Afghan government and the pashtun regions of and Pakistan. Their methods are incredibly brutal, but they are not in any way an international Jihadist group.

    The Taliban has never shown any desire for influence outside of their home territory, as it is made up mainly of poor rural Pashtun's. The problem has always been their relationship with Al Qaeda, which definitely is a an international Jihadist group made up of rich Arabs from the Gulf States who don't get enough pussy and have a serious inferiority complex. They are the ones that threaten our security, and we should never lose sight of that.

    If it were possible to know for sure that the Taliban would be forever divorced from these groups, I wouldn't mind leaving southern Afghanistan to them. It's not our job to bring backward nations into the 21st century.
    the problem is that there is no guarantees.

    Chamberlainīs mistake was not the policy of appeasement itself but his unwillingness to understand that hitler was in position wher honoring the deal wasnīt necessary-hitler promised something but there was no punishement when he broke the deal.

    So - taliban may be willing to promise everithing - just leave, but as soon as NATO leaves, taliban finds himself in position where he simply does not have follow signed contracts. Bringing back NATO forces just to remind to Taliban their side of the deals would be hughely unpopular among of NATO members.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    The point is not whether the Taliban uses terrorist tactics or not, its whether they are a threat to the US and her allies.
    As long as they are allied with and have a working operational relationship alongside al-Qaeda, they are a threat. More than that, they are a general threat to the peacefulness, stability, and prosperity (political, social, and cultural) of an entire region of the world.

    The Taliban as an organization is terrorist. This does not make all members of the Taliban terrorists, but that has been known for quite a while among people who are informed and intimate with the situation -- ie, not the media and their market -- and has long figured into the military's (and Afghan government's) planning.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    As long as they are allied with and have a working operational relationship alongside al-Qaeda, they are a threat. More than that, they are a general threat to the peacefulness, stability, and prosperity (political, social, and cultural) of an entire region of the world.
    Their relationship with Jihadist groups is the most concerning. If they did re-take the Afghan government or certain regions, I am sure they would make the trains run on time, so I don't think its a question of stability. The problem is allowing breeding grounds for the Arab groups, like they did post-Soviet invasion.

    And of course they are a terrorist group, but their goals are local. They'll kill innocents to intimidate and coerce their rivals, but they don't give a damn about the western world. They aren't like Saudi Wahabi'ists, they are tribal Pashtuns.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Their relationship with Jihadist groups is the most concerning. If they did re-take the Afghan government or certain regions, I am sure they would make the trains run on time, so I don't think its a question of stability. The problem is allowing breeding grounds for the Arab groups, like they did post-Soviet invasion.

    And of course they are a terrorist group, but their goals are local. They'll kill innocents to intimidate and coerce their rivals, but they don't give a damn about the western world. They aren't like Saudi Wahabi'ists, they are tribal Pashtuns.

    Pakistanīs army is campaigning now vs Talibanīs strongholds and enjoys some success( but it is still questionble wheter this success has lasting impact).

    So, any deal with Taliban now would be huge blow for Pakistan, especially when you take into account that USA used all means to force Pakistan to follow warpath.

    Also neither Alquaida or Taliban is ruled by firm grip, you can describe them as loosely binded confoderation, where every cell has its own goals. One branch may follow signed deal with Karzai, for instance, others donīt give a damn.

  16. #16
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    The point is not whether the Taliban uses terrorist tactics or not, its whether they are a threat to the US and her allies. I mean the French Resistance used terror tactics but that didn't make them "bad guys".
    They intentionally target civilians with sucide bombings. This makes them terrorists. You just responded to my rebuttal of someone saying "Taliban =/= terrorists" with "well the French Resistance did it too".

  17. #17

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    They intentionally target civilians with sucide bombings. This makes them terrorists. You just responded to my rebuttal of someone saying "Taliban =/= terrorists" with "well the French Resistance did it too".
    I am just pointing out that we should be at war with our enemies, not against certain tactics. There are countless groups that use terrorist tactics in the world, some are our friends, some are our enemies. Hell, the US has intentionally bombed more civilians in living memory than the Taliban could ever hope to.

    Let me flip things around, if the Taliban didn't use terrorist tactics, does it change anything?
    Last edited by Sphere; December 04, 2009 at 02:24 AM.

  18. #18
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    I guarantee you that the US does not target civilians with bombs.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, Tokyo.... that never happened?

    This is what Churchill had to say after Dresden

    It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land… The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy.
    Last edited by Sphere; December 04, 2009 at 02:32 AM.

  20. #20
    Tiberios's Avatar Le Paysan Soleil
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    Default Re: Karzai Welcomes US Timetable/Talks With Taliban

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, Tokyo.... that never happened?

    This is what Churchill had to say after Dresden
    Yeah as s.rwitt said, this is thin. It cannot be compared.


    Talking to the more moderate elements of the Taliban might work, but other than that, I don't think negotiating with the hard core Taliban is useless.

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