Research needed on the Economy!

[Myshkin]

Hello everyone,

I am about to release another stand-alone mini-mod (Total Economy). This time my area of focus will be building management and its impact on the economy.

Playing the campaign again and again, I have noticed that the law of diminishing returns applies to the buildings.

Specifically, I have noticed:

• High level farms and trade centres, as well as many other non-financial buildings cost a whole lot of gold for an over 250 turns payback (i.e. merchants quarter may often have a payback over 500 turns).
• Low level 1-3 non-military buildings are usually the most efficient within a frame of 150-200 turns, which the campaign lasts.
• Almost explicitly high level non-military buildings are not needed. It seems they only exist to sit there and look pretty.
• I click them randomly when I have too much money and try to conquer the whole map.
• Corruption may often work out to incredible sums without offering any option to the player to counter it, or apply any particular building management strategy to reduce it. Often corruption may exceed 60% even with an optimised capital location, with a good governor and all the series of "town hall" and "town watch" buildings constructed.
• It is obvious that many buildings have been designed with an agent orientated purpose. Since, many agents have been removed buildings like high level "trade centres" and "temples" do little, or no good.
• The buildings are not balanced. Some buildings are incredibly overpowered for little money (such as merchant warf series and low level 1 mines), while some others are incredibly underpowered for a ridiculous amount of gold (10k+ for a profit margin of 20gold/turn...).

What I would like to do:

• Rebalance all buildings (no more stupid 20gold/turn profit for a 10k building, no more 500gold/turn for a 2k building!).
• Make high tier buildings much more attractive comparing to low tier buildings.
• Offer building management strategies to counter extreme corruption (e.g. an organised road and port network may effectively decrease the distance to capital and provide safer and better means of transportation, and hence reduce corruption. A university may attract more people towards education and studies and provide a small bonus against corruption and crime.)
• Encourage the human to spend more time on building management.
• Do it in a way that will not spoil the balance of TATW 1.3.
• Keep it "light" so anyone can combine it with any other sub-mod.

I would appreciate your feedback. As always, I will implement all good ideas which are realistic.

Many thanks,
Myshkin

[Kauppaneuvos]

Dont give flat +money to ALL buildings, instead add modifiers like "10% increase to mining"

[cedric37]

That is a very nice idea my friend!!! thumbs up!
I will help you if you want; i already know how to tune some parameters (did it for my mini-patch).
Again, very good idea, today like you said 95% of the non-military buildings are useless.

Also to improve economy, you need more resources, now on the map there are so few resources. Where are the slaves and iron resources in Mordor ? There should be a bit more resources quite everywhere; now the map seems quite empty of them...

[Myshkin]

@ Kap We agree. I will not give flat money. I am also against it.

@ Cedric37 Many thanks mate! I am always open to ideas. BTW I was thinking of disabling farming income for every winter (once every 4 turns), do you have in mind which variable controls the winter? Before someone complains I will boost high level farms, so the income will work out about the same.

[cedric37]

Hi Myshkin,

For winter / summer tuning of farming income you will have to set a variable during the "winter" event let say to 0 and set it to 1 when summer. Then in the EDB, just add the condition to the farming level:

E.g.
farming_level 1 requires event_counter is_summer 1

The variable must be created and triggered in the campaign_script.txt (this won't be save-game compatible).

Cheers,
Cédric.

[Myshkin]

I reckon KK has already such a variable, since there is winter and there are movement penalties. Got to find it though... So, I think it will be savegame compatible.

[cedric37]

Then it is nearly done
^^

[Myshkin]

if I_CompareCounter quarter == 4
console_command season winter

Got it, KK is such a brilliant lad.

[cedric37]

Got it, KK is such a brilliant lad.

I am not sure that this console command can be useable (something to test or maybe someone knows the answer). You can try :

E.g.
farming_level 1 requires season summer

But i doubt it will work without the use of a variable...

In this case, in the campaign script maybe you will have to add:

if I_CompareCounter quarter == 4
console_command season winter
set_event_counter is_summer 0
.....
if I_CompareCounter quarter < 4
set_event_counter is_summer 1

Something like this i think.

[Archaon]

building capabilities from Alpaca's tutorial;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

amplify_religion_level
archer_bonus
cavalry_bonus
construction_cost_bonus_defensive
construction_cost_bonus_military
construction_cost_bonus_other
construction_cost_bonus_religious
construction_cost_bonus_stone
construction_cost_bonus_wooden
construction_time_bonus_defensive
construction_time_bonus_military
construction_time_bonus_other
construction_time_bonus_religious
construction_time_bonus_stone
construction_time_bonus_wooden
fire_risk
free_upkeep
gate_defences
gate_strength
gun_bonus
happiness_bonus
heavy_cavalry_bonus
income_bonus
law_bonus
mine_resource
navy_bonus
pope_approval
pope_disapproval
population_growth_bonus
population_health_bonus
population_loyalty_bonus
recruitment_cost_bonus_naval
recruitment_slots
recruits_exp_bonus
recruits_morale_bonus
religion_level
retrain_cost_bonus
stage_games
stage_races
taxable_income_bonus
tower_level
trade_base_income_bonus
trade_fleet
trade_level_bonus
upgrade_bodyguard
wall_level
weapon_artillery_gunpowder
weapon_artillery_mechanical
weapon_melee_blade
weapon_melee_simple
weapon_missile_gunpowder
weapon_missile_mechanical
weapon_naval_gunpowder
weapon_projectile

Here are some more building capabilities;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

agent merchant 0 ; therefor spy, assassin, diplomat, princess, priest, heretic, witch, inquisitor will all work also.
agent_limit merchant 1
armour 1
farming_level 1
recruitment_time_bonus_naval bonus 1
road_level 1
weapon_bladed 1
weapon_missile 2
weapon_siege bonus 1
weapon_simple 1

I am most interested in recruitment_time_bonus_naval bonus 1 because if the naval part can be changed to infantry, or cavalry, ect it would allow so many new options!

[Myshkin]

We can do this! Such as what options Archaon?

Hmmm... ships would have to change class though. Which is the purpose of this?

[PSIHOPAT]

Are you satisfied with building progression and its impact on the economy?

My vote is...NO!!!

[Myshkin]

OK I think I got it done

I've used event counter too, but it's not savegame compatible like this.

The amount of feedback we got so far terrifies me...

[cedric37]

You don't need a lot of feedback, just quality feedback...... ahemmm, ok i've left.... ^^

[Myshkin]

So true... yup, leave quickly. You got work to do!

[cedric37]

Hehe, i have already done the job... have you something else to give me ? argllll, slaver !!

But surely the thing to improve overall economy is to add resources on the map: no resources -> no trade income, even if you build markets, if you have nothing to sell or buy............... guess what ?
^^

[Myshkin]

I have found another way, I have modified the farming and trading threshold levels.

There are some resources at "descr_strat.txt" in "\Third_Age\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign" folder. Could you please try to add some more, while I fix the markets?

If you spare the time...

Farms are running, high level farms are much sexier now, while winter halves the crop production.

[cedric37]

We 'll need to discuss where to add resources and why also; before starting to add....

Some quick suggestions:
- Mordor: slaves, iron.
- Gondor: marble, silver.
- Harad: silk, spices.
- Rhun / Rohan: cereals, horses.
- Vale of Anduin: pelts, fish.
etc.

You are all welcome to add your suggestions !

[Myshkin]

A JRRT adict would have been so useful now...

I am happy to discuss though.

[cedric37]

Also use your logic, JRRT did not described in details what dad and mum do when they are left alone in their bedroom, yet everybody knows what they might do (they play cards.... yes that's it!!). The same here, what do you expect each region might have as "logical" resources. I said for example pelts + fish for the anduin vale, this sounds logical but maybe someone get a better idea (or we could add wood also etc).

Please help us!!